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  1. Mordschlag is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/03/2013 10:54pm


     Style: ARMA, Antagonistics

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Walking Stick Scenario Training

    This past weekend the ARMA group got together and did some fun group combat training drills. We were picking our own weapons and group scenarios, so naturally I picked a scenario where I fought off dagger-wielding attackers using my walking stick (not a usual ARMA weapon but I am a walking stick fan nonetheless). As you can expect, what the walking stick being superior, I came out on top in each of those exercises. But the usual problem arises: no one will want to fight against you in a knife vs stick match up if they have the knife (at least after the first time).

    So this brings me to my question for the people who fight with walking sticks. What drills or sparring match-ups do you use at your group that isn't too lopsided towards the stick user? Fiore has plates where he is seated and uses a stick to defend himself while rising from the seat against a dagger, so that's one I'm wanting to try. And Barton Wright described using a stick against a spear, which I also intend on trying. But does anyone else got more ideas? Maybe double dagger vs walking stick? Or perhaps short sword vs walking stick?

    I took a short video of the drill we did so I'll post it up once I get it uploaded to the youtubes.
  2. gregaquaman is online now
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    Posted On:
    6/04/2013 2:38am

    Join us... or die
     Style: mma /boxing/muai thai

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This is a spazzy idea that may get me culled in a forum I shouldn't really be in but here goes.

    Nobody likes defending ground and pound when the other guy is in mount. But you still drill it.

    Take turns.
    Whitsunday Martial Arts Airlie Beach North Queensland.
    http://www.facebook.com/#!/WhitsundayMartialArts
  3. Mordschlag is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/04/2013 9:49am


     Style: ARMA, Antagonistics

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Nah man, that's a good idea. I don't think you necessarily have to be some kind of vetted weapon fighter to post in this forum and it's always good to get another perspective.

    The one issue particular to my group is that I'm the only stick fighter in a group dedicated to edged weapon combat. But that might be cool, since I'm not likely to stick fight against another stick fighter in a time of need (I'd likely fight an untrained dude with a stick). Your idea would be a useful of practicing in a scenario where I get disarmed from my stick and then have to get it back against a dude hitting me with it.
  4. Fuzzy is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/04/2013 10:06am


     Style: FMA/MMA/HEMA noob

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Remember that the knife is a hell of a lot more dangerous than the stick, to the point where a determined attacker might be ok with earning a broken arm in exchange for closing the distance and stabbing repeatedly.

    We do stick vs knife on occasion, and to be honest it generally ends in the stick-user "dying" pretty quickly.
  5. Mordschlag is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/04/2013 10:21am


     Style: ARMA, Antagonistics

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Just curious Fuzzy, what kinda sticks and knives do you use at your group? And would you mind describing some of your stick vs knife experiences? I ask this because I've had exactly the opposite experiences. When I've done stick vs dagger, the dagger guy is often disarmed due to the power of the stick blows or they're otherwise unwilling to continue due to the pain of the blows. Hence I'm curious if differences in sticks account for the discrepancy here.
  6. Permalost is online now
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    6/04/2013 10:31am

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    My teacher has us fight each year at a local stickfighting tournament. In long weapons, most people pick 2 eskrima sticks, but I go with a short staff. I've gone up against double sticks, shinai, and double tonfas. Suffice to say that skill is the biggest factor when it comes to being able to dominate. Some people will block a hard shot with both sticks and my strike will still crash through and hit them. Others have a better understanding of defense and if my first shot doesn't land, they're closing.
  7. Fuzzy is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/04/2013 10:46am


     Style: FMA/MMA/HEMA noob

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mordschlag View Post
    Just curious Fuzzy, what kinda sticks and knives do you use at your group? And would you mind describing some of your stick vs knife experiences? I ask this because I've had exactly the opposite experiences. When I've done stick vs dagger, the dagger guy is often disarmed due to the power of the stick blows or they're otherwise unwilling to continue due to the pain of the blows. Hence I'm curious if differences in sticks account for the discrepancy here.
    It depends, usually when we do stick vs knife we use padded 28" rattan and a nok-type knife trainer.

    As Permalost says, I think its a skill issue, as in my experiences the guy with the stick only has time for 1-2 strikes before he gets tackled by the guy with the knife. It could also be a matter of stick length, I'm assuming your canes are a bit longer so you're starting at longer range.

    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    My teacher has us fight each year at a local stickfighting tournament. In long weapons, most people pick 2 eskrima sticks, but I go with a short staff. I've gone up against double sticks, shinai, and double tonfas. Suffice to say that skill is the biggest factor when it comes to being able to dominate. Some people will block a hard shot with both sticks and my strike will still crash through and hit them. Others have a better understanding of defense and if my first shot doesn't land, they're closing.
    I fought double-stick vs a guy with a Shinai back in February, I found that I'd take maybe 1-2 shots on the way in (admittedly my defense was bad enough that I did get smacked in the head) but once I got inside his reach it was pretty much my fight.
  8. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/04/2013 10:48am

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     Style: Bartitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Here's a video of stick sparring at the Bartitsu Club of Chicago. These are actually all scenario training matches, under various restrictions; in some of them the fighters are only allowed to use strikes, in others they can only thrust and in still others they can use whatever (disarms, grapples, punches etc.)



    We haven't trained knife vs. stick because it doesn't appear in the canonical Bartitsu material, though Barton-Wright and Pierre Vigny (the stick fighting instructor at the original Bartitsu Club in London) both referred to to that scenario in demonstrations, etc.
  9. lklawson is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/04/2013 10:52am


     Style: Bowie

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mordschlag View Post
    This past weekend the ARMA group got together and did some fun group combat training drills. We were picking our own weapons and group scenarios, so naturally I picked a scenario where I fought off dagger-wielding attackers using my walking stick (not a usual ARMA weapon but I am a walking stick fan nonetheless). As you can expect, what the walking stick being superior, I came out on top in each of those exercises. But the usual problem arises: no one will want to fight against you in a knife vs stick match up if they have the knife (at least after the first time).
    I can come out on top as the knife guy, but I have to be willing to sacrifice an arm. If it is a "duel" (or certain other scenarios), then this is OK because broken bones heal while being dead doesn't.

    So this brings me to my question for the people who fight with walking sticks. What drills or sparring match-ups do you use at your group that isn't too lopsided towards the stick user?
    Several:
    1. Change the range. Knife guy gets to start at closer than 6 feet.
    2. Change your grip. Cane guy doesn't get to use an optimally set grip or grip location on the cane. Instead, he must grip the cane half way down the shaft or at the top of the crook (as if he were walking with it).
    3. Change the direction. The knife guy attacks from behind, as if in ambush.
    4. Change the space. Use a restricted area environment such as an office cubicle or a very cluttered garage.
    5. Change your mobility. 99% of cane systems asume that the guy with a cane doesn't need one as an ambulatory aid. So... break your foot. Failing that, put a pebble inside your shoe so that walking is painful. Tie one leg "folded up" as if you had an amputation at the knee. Hobble your ankles together so that your footwork is limited to 1-Foot steps. You get the idea.
    6. Change the spectators. Knife guy gets unarmed buddies who will "come to his aid" after a set period of time (perhaps 5 seconds to 30 seconds).
    7. Change the crowd. Knife guy attacks you "in the middle of a crowd." Restrict the area to maybe a 30' square or circle and then have the rest of the class milling about randomly inside when the knife guy attacks you as if the attack is occurring on a crowded street. After 3 seconds of action, the "crowd" is free to "suddenly realize" there's a violent encounter and am-scray.


    There are others but this is a really good start.

    And Barton Wright described using a stick against a spear, which I also intend on trying.
    It's a Staff, but it's being thrust in waist level spear-like motion.

    Maybe double dagger vs walking stick? Or perhaps short sword vs walking stick?
    Try opposing the cane to a flexible weapon such as a sjambok or 'chucks.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
  10. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/04/2013 10:57am

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     Style: Bartitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Pedantically, the weapon Barton-Wright was talking about was an alpenstock (a spiked hiking staff), so sort of an improvised spear.
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