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  1. Devil is offline
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    His heart was visible, and the dismal sack that maketh excrement of what is eaten.

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    Posted On:
    5/01/2013 8:59am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by atheistmantis View Post
    One day when society gets their collective heads out of their asses there will be many changes. Not just gay marriage, but so many other issues. People just fear too many things and are so afraid of change. If they would only embrace it, just imagine the progress we could make!
    Ooooh, yes!!! It will be so magical. Everyone will **** rainbows and watch the unicorns race on Sundays. Shut the **** up.

    Societies rise and fall. That's just the way it is. No ideological path will prevent war and suffering and all the other bad **** that eventually happens to any society. So, get off your pedestal of idealism.

    The progress you imagine will happen if the government suddenly says it's fine for gays to be man and man or wife and wife really has no more impact on the fate of society than the color of shirt you chose to wear this morning.

    Quote Originally Posted by atheistmantis View Post
    One day when society gets their collective heads out of their asses there will be many changes. Not just gay marriage, but so many other issues. People just fear too many things and are so afraid of change. If they would only embrace it, just imagine the progress we could make!
    Ooooh, yes!!! It will be so magical. Everyone will **** rainbows and watch the unicorns race on Sundays. Shut the **** up.

    Societies rise and fall. That's just the way it is. No ideological path will prevent war and suffering and all the other bad **** that eventually happens to any society. So, get off your pedestal of idealism.

    The progress you imagine will happen if the government suddenly says it's fine for gays to be man and man or wife and wife really has no more impact on the fate of society than the color of shirt you chose to wear this morning.
  2. PDA is offline
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    Posted On:
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    Quote Originally Posted by atheistmantis View Post
    One day when society gets their collective heads out of their asses there will be many changes. Not just gay marriage, but so many other issues. People just fear too many things and are so afraid of change. If they would only embrace it, just imagine the progress we could make!
    You're a Star Trek fan arent you :)
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  3. dougguod is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/01/2013 11:07am


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete838 View Post
    There shouldn't be any incentive or disincentive to begin with, but getting married disqualifies you for more than it qualifies you for.
    We aren't old enough to be concerned about social security survivors benefits, and it will probably be insolvent by then anyway. We don't make enough money for the tax rates to matter. The only perceivable benefit is filing only one set of tax forms.
    Should or shouldn't is a moot point. The reality is that the government does offer incentives. The question at hand is, how can the government justify not giving homosexual couples the same incentives it gives to heterosexual couples? Answer, it can't.
  4. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/01/2013 11:45am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete838 View Post
    I'm against government defining and administering marriage.

    I'm married, "legally", but if we had it to do over my wife and I would have the ceremony celebrating our lives and commitment with our family and friends but skip the paperwork at the courthouse. A marriage license or state certificate adds nothing to our relationship.

    Government didn't create marriage so why should we allow them to define it? Marriage is a spiritual rite. It should be in accordance with your (and your betrothed) beliefs, whatever they are. Christian, Unitarian, Mormon, or Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. If you don't have a faith you can bind hands or whatever you like. Get the government out of your life as much as possible.
    Right, so you're against marriage. You're contradicting yourself a bit I think you might have missed a bit of my discussion earlier. Before you can make these points you have to define marriage. The observation of a community between the "legal" joining of two people? In order for something to be legal government has to get involved. If you don't want the government involved then you can get married but it wouldn't be legal.
  5. Pete838 is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/01/2013 11:57am


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    gay marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel_tke View Post
    Well, that is simply because you are ignorant of the Social Security policies. Just because you don't use them, or know them, doesn't mean they don't exist. There is a lot more to Social Security than just survivor benifits. There is disability for adults and children. Which also includes survivor benifits on the disabiilty program. You may not be using that now, but if you get in a car wreck tomorrow, that all can change and so will your opinion.

    There is alos alot more issues with marriage than just Social Security. Like hospital issues. Can you make decisions at a hospital for your wife if she is incapacitated? Not if you are not married. What about insurance benifits such as coverage for family members under the same plan?

    You are saying that you don't agree with marriage on a legal stand point, but do on a spiritual one. There is no law against spiritual unions. You can find a preacher to marry you to your car muffler. But it won't be legally recognised which is what this thread is abut. You can say you don't believe in it all you want, but that is irrelivant to the law. I can tell a judge that I don't believe in the murder law. But that won't keep me out of prison. Because as long as you reside in this country, it's laws are the ones you have to abide by.
    We were discussing government benefits of marriage, so some of the things you mention don't really apply. For example, making decisions in a hospital isn't a government benefit, and you can choose anyone as your healthcare power of attorney if you plan ahead. Insurance benefits are a private transaction.

    Regarding actual government benefits like OSDI, couldn't government simply respect an establishment of marriage without needing to define who can and cannot be married? If any two people (or three or however many) want to sign a contract with each other that they are married then there is no reason the government shouldn't respect that and no reason the government needs to administer it.

    We have allowed government into every facet and corner of our lives so much that we can no longer even privately define that men use the men's room and women use the women's room. Now government decides that as well. The solution isn't for government to change the definition or allow this or disallow that. The solution is for government to get the hell out of it and respect what people decide for themselves. Of course the religious right is against personal freedom or people they don't like and the left would rather protect the freebies and goodies that come with govt largesse.

    [/libertarian rant]
  6. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/01/2013 12:01pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by dougguod View Post
    Should or shouldn't is a moot point. The reality is that the government does offer incentives. The question at hand is, how can the government justify not giving homosexual couples who can't legally be married the same incentives it gives to MARRIED heterosexual couples? Answer, it can't.
    Fixed.

    Yes, I'm being pedantic. Yes, that is an important distinction.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pete838 View Post
    We were discussing government benefits of marriage, so some of the things you mention don't really apply.
    No, people were discussing MULTIPLE issues about gay marriage. You focused on one while ignoring all others.
  7. Diesel_tke is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/01/2013 12:44pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete838 View Post
    For example, making decisions in a hospital isn't a government benefit, and you can choose anyone as your healthcare power of attorney if you plan ahead.

    You can try, but that doesn't mean it will work. For example, when I had my knee surgery they notified me that the don't accept a living will and that the only one who could make decisions was my legal wife or parent. Some hospitals will allow you to have a health care surrogate, but they are not legally bound to accept it. Some hospitals will allow a "close personal friend" to make decisions. But there has been instances in Florida where a parent and "close personal friend" disagreed. Guess who won? The parent. You may remember that case being all over the news. And there have also been instances where surrogates have wanted to cease care, but the hospital didn't agree. Yes, they went into legal battle and won, but they still had to pay the cost of treatment while the battle was going on, which was the point in the first place. A spouse wouldn't have had those issues.

    And I never said Government benefits. I said legal. As in applying to legal marriage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete838 View Post
    Insurance benefits are a private transaction.

    Funny that you mention insurance, because their are all different types of insurance. I guess you never heard of Social Security Disability Insurance. No, that is not a private transaction. But I will humor you and give you and example. My medical insurance(private) will cover my legal spouse and children. If I had a spiritual but not legal spouse he/she would not be covered. So, yes, it's still an issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete838 View Post

    Regarding actual government benefits like OSDI, couldn't government simply respect an establishment of marriage without needing to define who can and cannot be married? If any two people (or three or however many) want to sign a contract with each other that they are married then there is no reason the government shouldn't respect that and no reason the government needs to administer it.

    This statment contradicts itself. You COULD have one or the other. But the problem with the first is that if you have a government that doesn't recognize marriage, then they wouldn't have to give benifits to a spouse, because there would be no such thing. This isn't the case so why debate it?

    The second part of your statement supports what I've been saying. Which is that the government should recognise gay and strait marriage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete838 View Post

    We have allowed government into every facet and corner of our lives so much that we can no longer even privately define that men use the men's room and women use the women's room. Now government decides that as well. The solution isn't for government to change the definition or allow this or disallow that. The solution is for government to get the hell out of it and respect what people decide for themselves. Of course the religious right is against personal freedom or people they don't like and the left would rather protect the freebies and goodies that come with govt largesse.

    [/libertarian rant]
    Ok.
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  8. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/01/2013 1:05pm

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    You can try, but that doesn't mean it will work. For example, when I had my knee surgery they notified me that the don't accept a living will and that the only one who could make decisions was my legal wife or parent. Some hospitals will allow you to have a health care surrogate, but they are not legally bound to accept it. Some hospitals will allow a "close personal friend" to make decisions. But there has been instances in Florida where a parent and "close personal friend" disagreed.
    I was wondering if anybody was going to bring this up. Talk about law suits waiting to happen.
  9. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    5/01/2013 1:16pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The finer points of marriage law have more to do with the dissolving of it.
    Divorce its fun for the whole family.

    Seriously though do you know how much of a pain in the ass it is to break up community property without a court order and what a pain in the ass it is to get a court order without being married in the first place?
  10. Pete838 is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/01/2013 1:35pm


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    gay marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    The finer points of marriage law have more to do with the dissolving of it.
    Nothing like spending 50k on lawyers to fight over a dog, 25k worth of stuff, and a house with 2 mortgages. Our gay friends that can't marry don't realize how lucky they are lol.

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