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  1. Devil is online now
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    His heart was visible, and the dismal sack that maketh excrement of what is eaten.

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    Posted On:
    4/26/2013 8:11am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Supreme View Post
    Equal rights on public transportation versus forcing people to observe the joining of two people? I don't see it, not if you can amend these legally through the aforementioned processes.
    But your argument was that there is nothing in our Constitution that guarantees marriage rights. I think you should rethink that argument unless you're also willing to argue that blacks don't have the right to drink from the same water fountain as whites. Can you not see the legal and moral relationship between the issue of gay rights and the issue of equal rights for other minority groups?

    Homosexuals are simply asking that the government not legislate discrimination against them. Historically, civil rights have usually prevailed on these issues in the long run and there is no reason to believe this won't end the same way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Supreme View Post
    Equal rights on public transportation versus forcing people to observe the joining of two people? I don't see it, not if you can amend these legally through the aforementioned processes.
    But your argument was that there is nothing in our Constitution that guarantees marriage rights. I think you should rethink that argument unless you're also willing to argue that blacks don't have the right to drink from the same water fountain as whites. Can you not see the legal and moral relationship between the issue of gay rights and the issue of equal rights for other minority groups?

    Homosexuals are simply asking that the government not legislate discrimination against them. Historically, civil rights have usually prevailed on these issues in the long run and there is no reason to believe this won't end the same way.
  2. Devil is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/26/2013 8:15am

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    Quote Originally Posted by RhinoUP View Post
    Devil is by far my favorite poster on here. So many people in one:)
    Do you mean favorite poster in this thread, on this website, or on the internet? Because I'm thinking you probably mean on the internet.

    Quote Originally Posted by RhinoUP View Post
    Devil is by far my favorite poster on here. So many people in one:)
    Do you mean favorite poster in this thread, on this website, or on the internet? Because I'm thinking you probably mean on the internet.
  3. battlefields is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/26/2013 8:18am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Have you convinced yourself yet, Devil?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Machette View Post
    Ups to Battlefields for dropping the sage wisdom.

    You are like a Pimp Yoda.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquil Suit View Post
    Battlefields... You're more of a man than I am.
    GET A RED BELT OR DIE TRYIN'.
  4. Devil is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/26/2013 8:20am

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    Quote Originally Posted by battlefields View Post
    Have you convinced yourself yet, Devil?
    Oh, all the arguments I've made are true. I just still don't give a **** about gay rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by battlefields View Post
    Have you convinced yourself yet, Devil?
    Oh, all the arguments I've made are true. I just still don't give a **** about gay rights.
  5. DCS is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/26/2013 9:47am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ermghoti View Post
    Incorrect, although it is closer to correct now than, say, 50 or a hundred years ago.
    That's because social institutions' inertia but what is correct is correct, regardeless of social conventions.
  6. ermghoti is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/26/2013 11:30am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DCS View Post
    That's because social institutions' inertia but what is correct is correct, regardeless of social conventions.
    Nope, still only partially correct. To the extent that women are allowed/encouraged/accepted in the workplace increasingly, men and women are approaching a more level plane.

    The institution of marriage addresses:

    1. Until recently, a man had no guarantee a child was or was not his. Marriage places a prohibition on dalliance outside of marriage.
    2. Women lose the ability to bear children after menopause, men can theoretically reproduce for life. Biologically, men will be driven to pick up a new, fertile mate late in life. The infertile mate will be of less value, and likely to be abandoned.
    2a. The abandoned women, having been deprived of educational and professional fulfillment to some degree, will be more likely to become a burden on society. Marriage forbids simple abandonment of a pairing.

    There are other benefits and responsibilities that date back to antiquity, and others that are more recent developments, but without a difference in gender/sex, and a corresponding different set of physical traits and societal expectations, none of them serve any purpose.

    You are correct, that, increasingly, marriage serves society less than in decades/centuries/millennial past (probably why divorce rates have skyrocketed, incidentally), but other than a valueless endorsement of affection, none of the benefits and responsibilities have an underlying purpose in a same-sex relationship.

    Why is the government concerned with a couple's ability to share healthcare? Because one of the couple will be in a poorer professional position to acquire adequate and consistent insurance. Tax breaks? To encourage the legal solidification of the family units, reducing indigent women and children in the absence of such contracts. Same story with automatic assumption of powers of attorney.

    I used to have concerns about unintended consequences, but we've had a couple decades of marriages and/or civil unions, and nothing significant has turned up. Given a choice, I'd eliminate the government's involvement in marriage entirely, barring that, sure, let people marry whoever they want. However, I still can't see compelling reason why not expanding marriage to include same-sex couples is inherently discriminatory, given the above, even if those arguing against it are clearly doing so for discriminatory reasons.
    Quote Originally Posted by strikistanian View Post
    DROP SEIONAGI ************! Except I don't know Judo, so it doesn't work, and he takes my back.
  7. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/26/2013 11:35am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I like how DCS is "partially correct" because you have a different opinion. Then you write an essay full of social conventions.
  8. ermghoti is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/26/2013 11:51am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    I like how DCS is "partially correct" because you have a different opinion. Then you write an essay full of social conventions.
    I also cite biological realities. The social conventions are the correct part. I do happen to be of the opinion that the conventions originally arose from biological differences, which obviously have been de-emphasized in importance over time.

    Somebody provide a reason why society/government has an interest in whether people marry. All the ones I can think of involve biology at least indirectly.
    Quote Originally Posted by strikistanian View Post
    DROP SEIONAGI ************! Except I don't know Judo, so it doesn't work, and he takes my back.
  9. DCS is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/26/2013 11:54am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You are looking at marriage from a western judeo-christian culture point of view.

    Marriage has the same reason to exist as burqua: protecting women from men. At the moment you accept everyone is born free and equal, marriage (both hetero and homo) becomes nonsense.
  10. DCS is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/26/2013 11:58am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ermghoti View Post
    I also cite biological realities. The social conventions are the correct part. I do happen to be of the opinion that the conventions originally arose from biological differences, which obviously have been de-emphasized in importance over time.

    Somebody provide a reason why society/government has an interest in whether people marry. All the ones I can think of involve biology at least indirectly.
    These biological differences are as relevant as the biological differences between black and white people.
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