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  1. #21
    NeilG's Avatar
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    Wasn't talking about RNC, was referring to the necktie choke.

  2. #22
    jnp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wing-Kwan-Fu View Post
    I'm not good with the RNC, but this is definitely wrong. It does seem that there are guys with necks too strong to succumb to non-collar chokes, but high-level grapplers are routinely caught in RNCs.

    Also, I am skeptical about the role of the vasovagal response in "blood chokes". I want to see some fMRI...
    It's one thing for a couple of Judo instructors to go on a tangent in a technique thread (ahem), but lack of reading comprehension is another issue altogether.

    To wit, please don't do that again in the technique fora.

  3. #23
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    Ming Loyalist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wing-Kwan-Fu View Post
    Also, I am skeptical about the role of the vasovagal response in "blood chokes". I want to see some fMRI...
    you want to see some fMRI what? images, i assume. are you a radiologist? an MR tech?

    i worked in an fMRI lab for 4 years, and am a certified judo coach, so i have some familiarity with the technology in question as well as the choke.

    you want to see the *brain activity* that happens when someone is choked out? what are you hoping to observe exactly about the vasovagal response?

    good luck applying for that research grant.
    "Face punches are an essential character building part of a martial art. You don't truly love your children unless you allow them to get punched in the face." - chi-conspiricy
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    "Seriously, who gives a **** what you or Errant think? You're Asian males, everyone just ignores you, unless you're in a krotty movie." - new2bjj

  4. #24
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    BKR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wing-Kwan-Fu View Post
    I'm not good with the RNC, but this is definitely wrong. It does seem that there are guys with necks too strong to succumb to non-collar chokes, but high-level grapplers are routinely caught in RNCs.

    Also, I am skeptical about the role of the vasovagal response in "blood chokes". I want to see some fMRI...
    Be as skeptical as you like, it is true.
    Falling for Judo since 1980

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wing-Kwan-Fu View Post
    Also, I am skeptical about the role of the vasovagal response in "blood chokes".
    So, what you are saying is you are skeptical of Vladimir Putin as an authority on judo chokes. That's fine, go ahead and dis on the guidance of a Russian alpha male with decades of top level judo experience.

    Applying pressure to the vagus nerve is a classic cause of rapid (ie within seconds) syncope. The "Choking Game" that kids take part in uses this response to induce feinting.

    You can also induce the vasovagal response from heavy coughing fits that cause the neck muscles to constrict the vagus, something asthmatic people sometimes experience.

    Strangulation by trachea can take more than a minute to induce syncope. Strangulation by vagus can take seconds because the vagus response is an immediate dump of your resting blood pressure to 1/3rd its normal level. Nappytime.
    Last edited by W. Rabbit; 5/01/2013 12:55pm at .

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by NeilG View Post
    Speaking of those, random thought - what's the Japanese name for the necktie choke? That's what we call it in our dojo where you grab both collars with one hand and then just keep tightening it up by pulling one of them through with the other hand.
    I don't know the direct Japanese name for that one specifically, but it seems very much like a variation on the base choke from that position, ichimonji shime (single line constriction). The base choke for that is top hand in the standard cross-lapel choke position (across the neck, thumb-in, grabbing the collar) and the bottom hand gripping the opposite lapel further down.

    I'm sorry I can't seem to find a good picture of it for you. Hope that helps.

  7. #27
    NeilG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muerteds View Post
    I don't know the direct Japanese name for that one specifically, but it seems very much like a variation on the base choke from that position, ichimonji shime (single line constriction). The base choke for that is top hand in the standard cross-lapel choke position (across the neck, thumb-in, grabbing the collar) and the bottom hand gripping the opposite lapel further down.

    I'm sorry I can't seem to find a good picture of it for you. Hope that helps.
    Nope, necktie is not like that. Your hand isn't in the collar at all. You have both lapels in one hand so that the collar is made into a noose, and you are tightening up the noose by pulling one or the other lapel with the other hand. It's a slow choke, if the guy hasn't seen it before he may not realize he's in danger until he is well and truly primed.
    Last edited by NeilG; 5/02/2013 1:27am at .

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by NeilG View Post
    Nope, necktie is not like that. Your hand isn't in the collar at all. You have both lapels in one hand so that the collar is made into a noose, and you are tightening up the noose by pulling one or the other lapel with the other hand. It's a slow choke, if the guy hasn't seen it before he may not realize he's in danger until he is well and truly primed.
    Sorry, I should have been more clear. I don't know that the necktie choke (I can visualize what you're describing easily enough) has a unique Japanese name. A lot of things have a name, and then there are variations with the same name. This struck me as one of those examples. However, I'd love to find out I'm wrong, just to know if it truly is known by a different name.

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