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  1. blackmonk is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/17/2013 9:52pm

    supporting member
     Style: belt and jacket wrestling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    osaekomi/pinning in combat

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    There is a marked bias among people I train with, even high-level grapplers, against osaekomi and pinning. Most people do not think it "counts", and that it does not constitute a finish, especially in the street or in MMA. I happen to disagree, but I'm not here to debate it myself.

    Convince me that osaekomi is either worthwhile or worthless. I know that this is somewhat contingent on the ruleset, but as it was developed in judo, it was meant to represent a symbolic death in real combat (or that's what they say). Rousey used it highly effectively against Carmouche, and to a certain extent, you could argue that GSP's positional dominance over Diaz was akin to pinning.

    I like seeing ultimate control, regardless of the finish. Tell me what you think.
  2. Krijgsman is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/17/2013 11:05pm


     Style: Judo noob, injured guy.

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think there is a Gene Lebell quote about "time holds" and establishing control.

    I would say there a few points where pins are valuable: Most obviously, if you are participating in a combat sport/rule set that awards points or a win for pins, then osaekomi is obviously valuable.

    Also, in an MMA fight or grappling sport with no pinning, the mantra of "position before submission" is often bandied around. Having strong pins just means you have strong control positions that you can transition into submission or ground and pound. If you are controlling your opponent on the ground in MMA, you are winning.

    Finally, in teh streetz, osaekomi/pins give you a means of controlling your assailant that doesn't need to damage them with a joint lock or render them unconscious, if the situation is such that you want to minimize damage to the person you are controlling.

    Also, if you are a samurai, it lets you stab the ninja you are squishing.

    I admit I don't have great control positions yet (I tend to go for subs rather than pinning even in Judo, and I think it may be a bad habit) but I definitely see the value. Really, the positions of control don't vary that widely among the grappling arts, the uses might be a bit different depending on the rules.
  3. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/18/2013 2:55am

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     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think pinning is a vital skill. It gives one a chance to start to de-escalate a situation. Also it is easier to maintain situational awareness while on the ground compared to a lot of other positions. You are not in a bad position if you want to go ahead and further escalate the conflict.
  4. franginho is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/18/2013 7:10am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=88676

    search function is your friend...
  5. blackmonk is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/18/2013 7:27am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Re: osaekomi/pinning in combat

    There are only 2-3 posts in that entire thread that address my actual question. 95% of it addresses the technical aspects of pinning itself.

    Context is your friend.
  6. franginho is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/18/2013 7:42am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    They address the issue of "worth" quite a lot, yes it gets a bit technical along the judo-bjj line but they actually arguing the issue of the pin and use itself. They argue it as you stated yourself "position before submission" and also as a fluid point for subs etc. rather than just a pin. Even if you use it as a good pin it has its application.
    For this one, as for most other stuff, it is a question of how you train it (with what goal in mind) and how you apply it in a given rule set.
    SamboSteve has a very nice approach to it as well, I think you can see it in his rolled up episode where he shows how you can use it as a control position as well as a submission set up and transition point.
  7. Krijgsman is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/18/2013 1:03pm


     Style: Judo noob, injured guy.

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by franginho View Post
    They address the issue of "worth" quite a lot, yes it gets a bit technical along the judo-bjj line but they actually arguing the issue of the pin and use itself. They argue it as you stated yourself "position before submission" and also as a fluid point for subs etc. rather than just a pin. Even if you use it as a good pin it has its application.
    For this one, as for most other stuff, it is a question of how you train it (with what goal in mind) and how you apply it in a given rule set.
    SamboSteve has a very nice approach to it as well, I think you can see it in his rolled up episode where he shows how you can use it as a control position as well as a submission set up and transition point.
    1) I said position before submission, not blackmonk

    2) that episode of rolled up is fantastic, so I shall post the video.
  8. franginho is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/18/2013 1:15pm


     Style: JiuJistu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sorry for attributing things to the wrong guy, it was early ;D

    The stuff about the "pin" starts around 37:10 and yeah I like that episode and IIRC steve has some nice drills around that position (switching forward facing side mount to back backward facing side mount and so on).
  9. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/18/2013 1:21pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Also this
  10. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/18/2013 1:37pm

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     Style: Chinese Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Don't forget Anthony Johnson vs Dan Hardy. He used this effectively. The idea of pinning someone has one more than a few MMA fighters a decision win. Not only that but when you study the pin correctly you learn to take the air away from your opponent and open up several submissions.
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