232834 Bullies, 3693 online  
  • Register
Our Sponsors:

Results 31 to 40 of 481
Page 4 of 49 FirstFirst 1234 567814 ... LastLast
Sponsored Links Spacer Image
  1. Gezere is offline
    Gezere's Avatar

    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Rhineland Pfalz, Der Vaderland
    Posts
    10,587

    Posted On:
    4/13/2013 1:50pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by animlmthr View Post
    As Azatdawn alluded too, genetic sexual classification and gender identity are two different concepts and should not be confused as one and the same.
    And both of you are wrong. Gender by definition is the members of a sex. Some dictionaries define gender simply as "sex" that can't be changed. So addressing him as the sex he IS males me correct. Telling me I'm wrong for doing makes you a douche bag. Notice no one has been derogatory to him but addressing what he is.

    As far as the competition issue. This isn't the first time this was brought up. Remember Nong Toom? Same issues was raised. Won a fight against a man post op. Later given a fight against a woman and won. Given that he proved can still fight with men and win would it be fair to let him continue to fight women?

    EDIT rereading this I made a mistake, I read just gender when you said gender identity. You are correct that they are two different things but gender and sex are pretty much synonymous.
    Last edited by Gezere; 4/13/2013 4:30pm at .
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  2. Gezere is offline
    Gezere's Avatar

    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Rhineland Pfalz, Der Vaderland
    Posts
    10,587

    Posted On:
    4/13/2013 2:01pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    6
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Azatdawn View Post
    You underwent surgery and years of hormone therapy to resemble a dwarf? Okay.
    There are people who under go surgery to be a lot of things vampires, cats, lizards, etc. I have a friend in Miami tnat has undergone years of surgery to become a vampire. Fangs, elven ears, hair plugs, chin I plant, sleeps in a coffin and drinks blood. Do I have the green light to stake him?
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  3. karma2343 is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Vista, CA
    Posts
    628

    Posted On:
    4/13/2013 2:05pm


     Style: Judo noob, heavy bag

    0
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by tgace View Post
    Should an MMA governing body be making decisions based on the genetic definition or on PC social conventions?
    If you check back in this thread, you'll notice there is actually debate in the scientific literature about this topic.

    I personally won't hold an opinion until the debate is more conclusive.

    One thing we should differentiate is transgender and transsexual. Sex is biological and gender is a social role. To be transgender means you identify as the gender that does not match with your sex, ie identifying as female but still having a dong. To be transsexual means you actually have undergone sexual reassignment surgery.

    I don't think any one thinks that a transgendered male who identifies as a woman should be fighting in WMMA, or at the very least I don't. But for the transsexual fighters, the waters are a bit more murky due to the hormone therapy that fundamentally changes their body.

    Does it change it enough? Thats subject to debate. One that I'll let people who know what they're talking about handle, because frankly most of us don't know what we're talking about on the subject.
  4. Azatdawn is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Lower Franconia
    Posts
    996

    Posted On:
    4/13/2013 2:51pm


     Style: Thaiboxing; MMA nööb

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Gezere View Post
    There are people who under go surgery to be a lot of things vampires, cats, lizards, etc. I have a friend in Miami tnat has undergone years of surgery to become a vampire. Fangs, elven ears, hair plugs, chin I plant, sleeps in a coffin and drinks blood. Do I have the green light to stake him?
    You have my permission to drag him into the sunlight and see if he glitters.

    EDIT: Seriously, though. I think this is a topic we will never agree on.

    Not neccessarily the vampire stuff. The gender stuff, though. You have a certain opinion on it that's based on the genetic side of it, not really convinced by (or not really looking into) the gender debate. If that's your opinion, there you go. I don't agree, though. I think it's more complex than you're letting on. Again, this is based on the posts of you I've read so far.
    Last edited by Azatdawn; 4/13/2013 3:09pm at .
  5. animlmthr is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    in the lab or in the gym
    Posts
    648

    Posted On:
    4/13/2013 2:54pm


     Style: SAMBO, jiu jitsu

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Machette View Post
    Quote where I said she is not allowed to identify as female or that we should not refer to her as female. In fact a poat where I denigrate Fox's gender identity at all.
    you never said these things and I never insinuated that you did. stop being so dramatic.

    Find that quote in this or any other thread. It should be easy, you can search my post history through my profile.
    There's no reason too as I never called you out, specifically, or made an accusation against you personally. again stop being dramatic. This thread is not about you.

    I gurantee you it isn't there.
    yeah, I know. that was never in contest.

    You confuse someone pointing out a minor flaw in your original (unedited) argument with full on trans-phobia.
    I acknowledge that perhaps my original post should have included a brief discussion on '46, XY' assignments and the related. I did not think at the time it was warranted.

    I also was never confused by your posts, or any others, as being or depicting 'transphobia'. I never insinuated anyone on this board or otherwise is transphobic. I am not passive aggressive and if I thought you were being transphobic, I would have said as much.

    As a said before, if one wants to be semantic and refer to the transgender person with their genetic sex classification rather than their gender identification, then one is not 'transphobic', one is a douche-bag and/or a tool. Further, re-read my post and that specific comment within said post; I started that paragraph with "However, in MY personal opinion...", as such, the commentary regarding douche bags and tools can be discarded by the audience at will since it's only an opinion.

    That makes you the "douche bag" here, douche bag.
    I see what you did there.

    Fox is free to be who Fox is IMHO. It's the dishonesty I take issue with. Though I do understand the social pressure she is under to keep here medical history secret.
    I completely agree with you.

    If we lived in a world where everyone is as excepting as you and I, she would not be subject to such prejudice. It makes me kind of sad that she felt she hdd to lie in the first place and I know why she did it. (It's the same reson this discussion has been brought up and the very issue that is upseting you.) That, however only explains the ruse. It does not excuse it.
    Again, we agree.

    Though I must say I am not upset. Chemists do not become upset. I curse because I use bad language from time to time; please don't mistake that for emotion. Also, like I have previously said in this thread, I agree with, or at least acknowledge, Fallon's life choice but I am on the fence regarding her allowance in MMA competition. I am not educated enough on the subject to make a yea or nay call and I never have stated that I am (my apologies if I came across as some expert). From the sources I have, the science tells me she is good to go to fight females but another side of me disregards that information and still thinks something is not right about it. Hence, why I stated earlier, "I would not fight her in a MMA match and I would be fairly butthurt if I came upon her in a grappling tournament". I acknowledge there is a logical discrepancy in that line of thinking and I am still trying to understand my current duality.

    FWIW, I think Mitrione is an effing moronic ape for saying what he said in public. JMHO.
    you're probably right.
  6. Vieux Normand is offline

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    4,271

    Posted On:
    4/13/2013 3:00pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: 血鷲

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Azatdawn View Post
    You underwent surgery and years of hormone therapy to resemble a dwarf? Okay.
    Seriously.

    I could've gotten panda the same way, within a few seconds, with nothing more than an axe.

    Free of charge.
  7. Lampa is offline
    Lampa's Avatar

    Middleweight

    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Oceanside, NY
    Posts
    1,288

    Posted On:
    4/13/2013 3:41pm

    Business Class Supporting Member
     New York MMA Examiner Style: magic FUCKING powers!

    5
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You know, there is some disagreement on this one from the medical community. Some doctors whose motives aren't overtly suspect feel that Fallon does have advantages that she got from her time as a man.

    The truth is, when you look at what actual research is done, those opinions going either way are based on nothing. The exact definition of what it takes to qualify for a certain gender division (muscle structure, bone structure, ect.) aren't set in stone.

    No one has codified what the exact numerical advantages men have over women in this sport are, let alone tested how post-reassignment hormones effects those things. There's no real evidence, either way, and the only precedent is IOC policy, which has never necessarily applied to professional or non-IOC affiliate sports.

    This whole argument, emotions and prejudices aside, really comes down to whether, when in doubt, you should or should not grant a professional athlete a license. Standard policy for athletic commissions is normally to not license, when in doubt. Florida decided to go the other way, this time.
  8. animlmthr is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    in the lab or in the gym
    Posts
    648

    Posted On:
    4/13/2013 4:01pm


     Style: SAMBO, jiu jitsu

    4
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Gezere View Post
    And both of you are wrong. Gender by definition is the members of a sex. Some dictionaries define gender simply as "sex" that can't be changed. So addressing him as the sex he IS males me correct.
    Yes, I have never disputed your 'correctness' in using he/him just that it's not cool (imo).

    I will continue to disagree with you regarding the definitions you provide as they are not accurate in the strictest sense. Genetic sex characterization and gender identification are two separate conditions.

    For example, as written by Dr. Shuvo Ghosh, MD (see full article here: http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/917990-overview):

    "Gender identity is defined as a personal conception of oneself as male or female (or rarely, both or neither). This concept is intimately related to the concept of gender role, which is defined as the outward manifestations of personality that reflect the gender identity. Gender identity, in nearly all instances, is self-identified, as a result of a combination of inherent and extrinsic or environmental factors...For example, if a person considers himself a male and is most comfortable referring to his personal gender in masculine terms, then his gender identity is male.

    In the English language, the terms sex and gender are often used interchangeably in the vernacular. However, in a medical and technically scientific sense, these words are not synonymous.

    Gender comes from the Latin word genus, meaning kind or race. It is defined by one's own identification as male, female, or intersex; gender may also be based on legal status, social interactions, public persona, personal experiences, and psychologic setting.

    Sex, from the Latin word sexus, is defined by the gonads, or potential gonads, either phenotypically or genotypically. It is generally assigned at birth by external genital appearance, due to the common assumption that this represents chromosomal or internal anatomic status.

    A person's sex is a primary state of anatomic or physiologic parameters. A person's gender is a conclusion reached in a broad sense when individual gender identity and gender role are expressed."

    Here's the differentiation as described by the American Psychological Association regarding sex classification and identifying one's individual gender assignment (full website here: http://www.apa.org/topics/sexuality/....aspx?item=1):

    "Transgender is an umbrella term for persons whose gender identity, gender expression, or behavior does not conform to that typically associated with the sex to which they were assigned at birth. Gender identity refers to a person�s internal sense of being male, female, or something else.

    Sex is assigned at birth, refers to one's biological status as either male or female, and is associated primarily with physical attributes such as chromosomes, hormone prevalence, and external and internal anatomy. Gender refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviors, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for boys and men or girls and women. These influence the ways that people act, interact, and feel about themselves. While aspects of biological sex are similar across different cultures, aspects of gender may differ."

    Please note all italics were done by me for emphasis.

    Telling me I'm wrong for doing makes you a douche bag.
    You're wrong for doing what? Did I say you were 'wrong'...? I don't believe I would have made such an absolute statement, such as, telling you, you are 'wrong'. Obtuse? Misunderstood? Yes, but not wrong. You are quite correct (semantically) in your use of he/him.

    I have repeatedly stated in this thread that no one is debating whether or not Fallon is genetically male. So of course referring to her as 'he/him/' is technically and semantically correct. You're still a douche-bag for doing so though (imo). And who gives a **** anyway, what I or you or anyone thinks about the strict use of semantics in this case? Its completely personal preference, hence the subjectivenes concerning this part of the discussion.

    This last part is actually quite ironic really due to your leading sentence, "And both of you are wrong." Unless of course, you were trying to be ironic?...are we both douche-bags now? I would think so lol

    Notice no one has been derogatory to him but addressing what he is
    Yes, I acknowledge this. It has led to a great discourse!

    As far as the competition issue. This isn't the first time this was brought up. Remember Nong Toom? Same issues was raised. Won a fight against a man post op. Later given a fight against a woman and won. Given that he proved can still fight with men and win would it be fair to let him continue to fight women?
    I am unfamiliar with this case and thus, cannot comment. I will research it asap.


    Because I have your audience Gezere, please allow me a brief derail. I am quite curious as to why I have received so many neg reps from you regarding this thread. I acknowledge that one was by accident because I too know how mobile phones and bullshido do not get along lol! Seriously though, just because we are disagreeing, and I believe really only on semantics and personal preferences, I thought we were having a fun debate. I meant no harm towards you or anyone else (Mr. Machete...). Regardless, if you feel/felt they are necessary then so be it.
  9. ChenPengFi is online now
    ChenPengFi's Avatar

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Hawai'i
    Posts
    3,313

    Posted On:
    4/13/2013 4:40pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Hung Gar, Choy Lay Fut

    3
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by animlmthr View Post
    Yes, I have never disputed your 'correctness' in using he/him just that it's not cool (imo).

    I will continue to disagree with you regarding the definitions you provide as they are not accurate in the strictest sense. Genetic sex characterization and gender identification are two separate conditions.

    For example, as written by Dr. Shuvo Ghosh, MD (see full article here: http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/917990-overview):

    "Gender identity is defined as a personal conception of oneself as male or female (or rarely, both or neither). This concept is intimately related to the concept of gender role, which is defined as the outward manifestations of personality that reflect the gender identity. Gender identity, in nearly all instances, is self-identified, as a result of a combination of inherent and extrinsic or environmental factors...For example, if a person considers himself a male and is most comfortable referring to his personal gender in masculine terms, then his gender identity is male.

    In the English language, the terms sex and gender are often used interchangeably in the vernacular. However, in a medical and technically scientific sense, these words are not synonymous.

    Gender comes from the Latin word genus, meaning kind or race. It is defined by one's own identification as male, female, or intersex; gender may also be based on legal status, social interactions, public persona, personal experiences, and psychologic setting.

    Sex, from the Latin word sexus, is defined by the gonads, or potential gonads, either phenotypically or genotypically. It is generally assigned at birth by external genital appearance, due to the common assumption that this represents chromosomal or internal anatomic status.

    A person's sex is a primary state of anatomic or physiologic parameters. A person's gender is a conclusion reached in a broad sense when individual gender identity and gender role are expressed."

    Here's the differentiation as described by the American Psychological Association regarding sex classification and identifying one's individual gender assignment (full website here: http://www.apa.org/topics/sexuality/....aspx?item=1):

    "Transgender is an umbrella term for persons whose gender identity, gender expression, or behavior does not conform to that typically associated with the sex to which they were assigned at birth. Gender identity refers to a person�s internal sense of being male, female, or something else.

    Sex is assigned at birth, refers to one's biological status as either male or female, and is associated primarily with physical attributes such as chromosomes, hormone prevalence, and external and internal anatomy. Gender refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviors, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for boys and men or girls and women. These influence the ways that people act, interact, and feel about themselves. While aspects of biological sex are similar across different cultures, aspects of gender may differ."

    Please note all italics were done by me for emphasis.


    I'm not sure i agree with the conflation of "gender identity" and "gender", especially when "genus" also refers to birth.
  10. Gezere is offline
    Gezere's Avatar

    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Rhineland Pfalz, Der Vaderland
    Posts
    10,587

    Posted On:
    4/13/2013 4:49pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I thumbs down I think 3 posts one was a mistake I caugth. If it was more I'm sorry. My approach on it is that it doesn't mean I have something against you I just don't agree with that post. There is no love lost.

    I thumbs down I think 3 posts one was a mistake I caugth. If it was more I'm sorry. My approach on it is that it doesn't mean I have something against you I just don't agree with that post. There is no love lost.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
Page 4 of 49 FirstFirst 1234 567814 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Powered by vBulletin™© contact@vbulletin.com vBulletin Solutions, Inc. 2011 All rights reserved.