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  1. animlmthr is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/12/2013 10:11pm


     Style: SAMBO, jiu jitsu

    15
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Okay...this took awhile and hopefully you knuckle heads will find these links adequate enough to start the discussion. FYI, most of this went down around March, 2013 if you start looking yourself for relevant articles/resources.

    As such, I had a difficult time finding the articles I originally referred to in my last post. I read a lot of this bullshit on Women's MMA Discussion's FB page but FB is terrible to find archived links. However, I did find a few of the ones I referred too, as well as, some other interesting/supplemental commentaries.

    They follow as:

    some of the original articles describing the Fallon conundrum (in case you're totally in the dark about all this):
    1. http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports...ation/1966201/

    2. http://www.glaad.org/blog/mma-fighte...ut-transgender

    3. http://www.outsports.com/2013/3/5/40...ro-mma-fighter

    4. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/mma...?sct=mma_wr_a3

    professional/doctor opinions on the topic:
    1. A 2005 scientific paper on the subject: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...v039p00695.pdf and the blog that originally referenced it: http://drannmaria.blogspot.com/2013/...-in-mixed.html

    2. Dr. Benjamin: http://www.mmajunkie.com/news/2013/0...r-mma-fighters or http://www.h4-entertainment.com/2013...against-women/

    [quote]When asked the question on MMA Junkie Dr Johnny Benjamin states that hormonal therapy and gender reassignment surgery can make someone more feminine but there is little evidence to suggest that it can change the physical performance to that of a non-transgender woman. Dr Benjamin also says that while many medical professionals have had well-voiced opinions regarding muscle mass and bone density but they have no specific, scientific information that answers the athletic/physical performance capacity question.[quote]

    3. a counter article to the above (note it's by GLAAD): http://www.glaad.org/blog/dr-johnny-...ter-fallon-fox

    4. and the controversial opinion of Dr. Helen Carroll: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/mma...n-fox-profile/

    [quote] Helen J. Carroll, the Director of the National Center for Lesbian Rights' Sports Project and an advocate for transgender athletes, said the "competitive equity" among transwomen and the rest of the field is always a glaring, and often misunderstood, topic.

    "[The common thinking is] it's impossible for a transgender woman, who was born a man, to play women's sports and [have] it be fair," said Carroll, a former athlete, national championship basketball coach, and collegiate athletic director with over 40 years of sports-related experience. "The short answer is the transgender woman is a woman, and when she transitions, she takes testosterone-blocking hormones, so when she does end up competing, she has less testosterone in her system than her competitors do."

    Because of this, Carroll said a transgender female athlete has to work harder to keep muscle mass and strength than a female-born woman athlete. That lack of testosterone would also affect speed and weight retention, added Carroll.

    "You remember that she's carrying a lot of estrogen at this point, which will make it difficult to cut weight," said Carroll.

    In Fallon's case, she was required to take copious amounts of estrogen and testosterone blockers in preparation for transition surgery in 2006. [quote]


    Fallon's licensing issues (I'm still confused myself whether she is or is not allowed to fight in female divisions...):
    1. http://espn.go.com/mma/story/_/id/90...ew-mma-license

    2. and a biased piece by: http://www.fightopinion.com/2013/03/...-transgenders/

    3. and lastly, Loretta's April 13th tweet: https://twitter.com/lorettahuntmma/s...13749004730368

    For shits and giggles, a bunch of opinions from around the community, including past, and potential future, opponents of Fox:
    1.
    2. http://espn.go.com/mma/story/_/id/90...gender-athlete
    4. http://www.bluegrassmma.com/2013/03/.../#.UWi22cqbVyI
    5. http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2013/3/14...-freemason-trt

    (there's a ton others, including Rogans stance and even Hulk Hogan {like anyone cares what Hogan thinks, lol}) Google and TMZ are your friends in these cases.

    Lastly, Fox responds to Mitrione: http://hereisyourwinner.com/2013/04/...matt-mitrione/

    [quote]Matt Mitrione went well beyond disagreeing with the medical experts who say I should be able to compete as a woman, and personally attacked me as a fighter, as a woman, and as a human being.

    His comments do not reflect the spirit of our sport, where most competitors uphold values like respect and dignity.[quote]

    A lot of these links are derived from Womans MMA Discussion on FB: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Women...46250385456144

    you have to scroll way down to Late Feb/March to start seeing the many articles they posted. I became inpatient and started to Google the ones I knew about, soooo....


    And just in case you want to see Fallon's last fight which ended with a KO from a knee:



    EDIT: Here's that damn article/link I finally found regarding one medical doc's opinion on the matter, where she herself is a male to female transgender (Dr. Marci Bowers) and another SR physician, Dr. Sherman Leis. Both agree Fallon has no advantage over non-operative females: http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2013/3/8/...-on-fallon-fox
    Last edited by animlmthr; 4/12/2013 10:47pm at .
  2. Gezere is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/13/2013 3:25am

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     Style: Kakutogi

    3
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by animlmthr View Post
    full disclosure I think is a large factor in this.

    and its not he/she, its fucking she
    No its HE will always be HE. Unless his DNA has been rewritten then it will remain a male. So unless you have the science that he has transformed into an actual woman HE is perfectly fine.
    Last edited by Gezere; 4/13/2013 4:36am at .
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  3. Hedgehogey is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/13/2013 4:40am

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     Style: ^_^

    7
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The goalposts keep getting moved. First it was muscle, until photos surfaced of her previous opponents having the advantage there. Then it was bone density, until someone remembered that Wolff's Law is a thing. Now it's bone structure.

    I guess now that means we need to establish a minimum pelvic girdle size for all female fighters. From now on, if you're gonna step into the octagon, you'd better be bringing cartoonishly large Hartmann Hips with you.


    "The only important elements in any society
    are the artistic and the criminal,
    because they alone, by questioning the society's values,
    can force it to change."-Samuel R. Delany

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    THIS IS GOING TO BE THE BEST NON-EUCLIDIAN SPLATTERJOUST EVER

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  4. Gezere is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/13/2013 4:41am

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I gave this a thumbs up but on my phone it beg repped it Thanks for providing the links
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
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  5. PDA is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/13/2013 5:32am

    supporting member
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Goju - Joe View Post
    What if he/she fights and looses to a woman then is it ok?

    My take is if the opponent knows and is OK with it hen it's ok....

    Maybe
    Yeah sure , in fact why do we even have weight classes? If a 155lb guy is ok fighting a 265lb guy just let them do it right?
    King without a crown
  6. Goju - Joe is offline
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    I am a Ninja bitches!! Deal with it

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    Posted On:
    4/13/2013 8:18am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Improv comedy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PDA View Post
    Yeah sure , in fact why do we even have weight classes? If a 155lb guy is ok fighting a 265lb guy just let them do it right?
    What if one fighter in the same weight class could bench 100lbs more than the other would we let them fight?

    It's about where to draw the line, what if Fallon wanted as she is now wanted to fight men in her weight class would that be all right?
  7. animlmthr is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/13/2013 9:16am


     Style: SAMBO, jiu jitsu

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Gezere View Post
    No its HE will always be HE. Unless his DNA has been rewritten then it will remain a male. So unless you have the science that he has transformed into an actual woman HE is perfectly fine.
    Don'y be so obtuse. You misunderstood what I meant by referring to her as a 'she'.

    SHE identifies as a female and as such, we should respect that identification. Whether she is a genetic female? No one is disputing that. You are missing what this whole discussion is about.

    EDITED: cause my response was too assholish. though this response isn't much better...
    Last edited by animlmthr; 4/13/2013 9:20am at .
  8. Mr. Machette is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/13/2013 9:26am

    Join us... or die
     Style: FMA, Ego Warrior

    5
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by animlmthr View Post
    Don'y be so obtuse. You misunderstood what I meant by referring to her as a 'she'.

    SHE identifies as a female and as such, we should respect that identification. Whether she is a genetic female? No one is disputing that. You are missing what this whole discussion is about.

    EDITED: cause my response was too assholish. though this response isn't much better...
    Kind of hard to argue away that Y chromosome, just sayin'...
  9. tgace is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/13/2013 9:33am


     Style: Arnis/Kenpo hybrid

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by animlmthr View Post
    Don'y be so obtuse. You misunderstood what I meant by referring to her as a 'she'.

    SHE identifies as a female and as such, we should respect that identification. Whether she is a genetic female? No one is disputing that. You are missing what this whole discussion is about.

    EDITED: cause my response was too assholish. though this response isn't much better...
    Since when are we allowed to BE whatever we SAY we are? No offense..I'm not implying that gender switching surgery shouldn't be allowed..but sex is genetically assigned, not bolted on parts we can decide to switch at will. This is a Man who has been medically altered to appear as close to a woman as our science will allow.
  10. Azatdawn is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/13/2013 9:38am


     Style: Thaiboxing; MMA nb

    3
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by tgace View Post
    Since when are we allowed to BE whatever we SAY we are? No offense..I'm not implying that gender switching surgery shouldn't be allowed..but sex is genetically assigned, not bolted on parts we can decide to switch at will. This is a Man who has been medically altered to appear as close to a woman as our science will allow.
    I think genetically determined sex is one thing. Gender is another. How to refer to that person (as he or she) seems to me more of a gender debate, where I can see very strong arguments for calling her "she".
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