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  1. Iscape is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/10/2013 5:14am


     Style: Satanist and BJJ noob

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ChuckWepner View Post
    You keep typing "physic," which is an obsolete term for the practice of medicine (often spelled "physick," etc., back when it was used at all.

    Do you mean that you have devoted a lot of study to the "psychic" aspect of Systema?

    Derren Brown is a magician. The things he does on his shows are staged. It's kind of sad to have to tell another adult this, but illusionists' performances don't involve special powers of either a supernatural or natural variety. Brown is another Uri Geller, updated for those among the gullible who prefer their mystical bullshit from a pseudo-scientific, atheistic perspective.

    If you want to convince anyone worth convincing that Brown isn't just a magician, point to where Brown has produced his effects in a controlled environment, in an experiment designed and carried out by qualified scientists with full participation of other magicians expert in the tricks of "mentalists." Otherwise, he's just a Uri Geller wannabe waiting for his James Randi to expose the BS.

    From an article with an extended quotation from someone who was featured on one of Brown's shows:


    From http://sabotagetimes.com/reportage/d...-derren-brown/
    Yep poor typing soz...

    Indeed Mr Brown will use every trick in the book to produce his shows, this includes everything from slight of hand and mis-direction, to hypnosis and straight up paying people to do what he wants (cash induced hypnosis :)

    Edit - so was the bookie in this clip contacted prior to this and asked to go along with it, possibly/probably. Maybe it was a bad example, I think the question is do suggestibility and suggestible states exist. I know people who have been hypnotized on stage and they were defo not pre-contacted, but yes they were aware of what was going on and did feel like they were going along with it.... but they did go along with it, and did do things they would not normally do in front of a large group of people. I guess that's kinda my point. I have a large post on how that applies to MA and systema in particular if anyone would care to read it.
  2. ChuckWepner is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/10/2013 5:45am


     

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Another account from someone who reports having observed the taping of a Derren Brown program. "NLP" is Neuro-Linguistic Programming, an off-shoot of hypnotherapy based on the idea of "reprogramming" the brain. A lot of Brown's tricks are supposedly grounded in disrupting the functioning of other peoples' "programs."

    There is, after over 25 years, no empirical evidence and no coherent underlying theoretical basis for NLP. But, according to this account, that doesn't matter for Brown, because he doesn't actually use it, instead relying on traditional hypnosis and a lot of undisclosed pre-arrangement.

    See http://skepdic.com/neurolin.html

    I had the good fortune of being 'selected' for Derren's new series 'trick of the mind'. I spent a day filming with Derren and also had dinner with him. I now know exactly how he does his tricks, and can quite confidently confirm that no mind-reading, NLP or psychology is used. It's all a con.

    First off, you must understand that almost EVERY SINGLE PERSON on the show who Derren does a trick on has been pre-selected at a hypnosis audition. Random members of the public are invited by word of mouth to a secret audition, where Derren performs routine hypnosis methods, such as getting people to clasp their hands together real tight till they can't open them, making them imagine walking down and down and down staris while listening to his voice etc etc He basically hypnotises the audience in the traditional way. Obviously not all the audience are hypnotisable, and he gradually selects those who are.

    The hypnosis was exactly the same as the two hypnosis shows i've been part of on stage, and also read about in hypnosis books.

    Once he had about 10 really hypnotisable people his production company got our details and we all went home. (the london cabbie was at my audition, as well as the 'scared' film student)

    On the day of filming Derren hypnotised me again, in private away from the cameras. He told me that when he said X i would do Y. Simple. So, when the cameras started rolling, he did his usual stupid schpeel pretending to influence me by saying 'cryptic' things like 'sometimes you mind does things you don;t know about' and 'i can read from your eyes that you are suggestible'. Of course, I was hypnotised and just had to respond to his X command. Exactly like on the Paul McKenna shows.

    The con is that he will never show himself hypnotising people, and just pretends like the 'stooge' is a normal random person. There are three lies here
    a) they are a stooge
    b) they have been hypnotised off camera
    c) no NLP or psychology is used, and whatever he claims he is doing is false.

    Needless to say he said X and I did Y. I was truly hypnotised and the 'trick' worked. But of course the audience of the show are made to think that I have been sublimenly influenced by the way he talked to me on camera. NOT TRUE.

    Anyway, we spent the day filming, doing the same trick at different locations, each time I had to pretend like I'd just met him.

    He then took me and his PA out to dinner, and this is when he told me his secrets. (not all of them of course)

    He said to me: 'Don't think that I hypnotised you. I didn't. I used a combination of mind control techinques and was influencing you on an unconscious level. So, don't go round telling people I hypnotised you.'

    He said this while looking straight into my eyes. I almost cracked up laughing.
    I asked how he felt conning people so badly, to which he replied ' I'm not conning them. I'm entertaining them. I'm making them react by setting up the trick to make it look more powerful than it is. That's what magic is about.'

    I got a little angry with him and basically told him that he was a hypnotist. At this point he retaliated by showing me some card tricks. He did that one on his new series that he did with stephen fry. (he has pre-rolled cards in two different cigarette packets in his pocket, and a false deck which only shows eoght cards repeated when viewed from one side, and a whole pack when viewed from the other side)

    He then said 'do you think i'm conning you now that you know how that card trick was done?' I said ' no, it's just a card trick, and you siad that it would be just that - a card trick. The con i'm worried about is that you tell your audience rubbish about influencing people and reading body signals and you're not, you're hypnotising them, then lying to the audience'.

    needless to say, he wasn't too impressed. He still paid for my dinner.

    so, i can now tell you how his other tricks are done:

    phonebooth: pre-hypnotised person picks up phone, derren says 'sleep'. person sleeps.

    mind-reading for 10p : pre-hypnotised people 'meet', and just say exactly what derren told them to say

    london cabbie: pre-hypnotised cabbie 'forgets' where something is, just because he's been told to. NB nothing to do with derren banging on the window or interupting patterns.

    invisible man: pre-hypnotised guy actually thinks he can't see derren.NB nothing to do with what derren says to him.

    how many fingers?: pre-hypnotised kid pulls out the number of fingers that derren says. NB derren 'guesses' a number, and the kid pulls this same number out of his pockets AFTER derren said the number, because he's been hypnotised to respond to derren's guess.

    i could go on, but you get the picture. If you have difficulty understanding how he does future tricks, just think about the fact that derren has simply hypnotised his stooge beforehand, and whatever he says on camera is misleading pyschobabble rubbish designed to get the NLP freaks turned on

    not all of his tricks are done by hypnosis. the remainign few are simple card tricks and sleight of hand magic. remember, he used to be a sleight of hand magician before. these tricks are very good tricks in their own right, but again derren cons the audience by making them think he's influenced people with his 'mind-control', when really, it's just a simple trick.

    i suppose the die-hard fans are saying 'so what? it's still entertaining'. yes, it is entertaining, because derren hypes it up so much more than it deserves, and he covers it with a facade of pyschology which simply isn't true. i don't like being lied to, nor do i like someone making a living out of lying to thousands of people. that's why i'm exposing him.

    that said, he is a very nice man, quite witty too. shame about being such a big fake.

    (PS: sadly, the trick he did on me is not going to be shown in this series, according to his production company who rang me last week)
    http://www.hypnosisforum.com/showthr...?p=771#post771

    I have not edited the quoted post.
  3. Iscape is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/10/2013 6:10am


     Style: Satanist and BJJ noob

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Apologies, I may have slightly misrepresented the Wiki quote on Primitive Reflexes in Adults as it was mainly referring to people with specific brain conditions.
    In my experience tho there are certain ways you can get the brain of a normal adult to refer back to some of those primal programming responses(if only for an instant), I will try to explain.
    Stage hypnotism works by getting the conscious brain into a suggestible state, then giving suggestions (mainly verbal) for people to follow.
    If you talk to people who have been hypnotised on stage they will say, "Yes I knew what was going on, I went along with it", that is true, that's how that sort of voluntary hypnotism works, by making you lose your inhibitions and want to go along with what you are told.
    In my experience there are other ways to get the brain into that suggestible state, and other ways to give suggestion rather than verbal.
    As the wiki article states new-born babies have the primal reflexes (selected by evolutionary processes) to give unconscious responses to certain stimuli which in general work to keep the baby safe in certain situations - grasp reflex for clinging on tightly to their mother etc. As the infant develops, the conscious parts of the brain take over control and cancel out the primal reflexes - ie young child can choose whether to cling on or not. Some of these responses can be observed with adults in certain states, called frontal release signs, although there is some debate on the issue.
    A few to try are:
    1. Grasp - relax your hand on the table palm up and stroke a pencil lightly across it, sometimes there will be a slight movement in the fingers and the urge to close your hand, sometimes not.
    2. Startle - Walking in the dark, something brushes your head, you get a jolt of tension through your body esp the neck (a definite over reaction to the light touch and even if it was a solid object not the best reaction to have)
    3. Rooting, Sucking - A funny one is to place a thumb etc (lol) lightly in someone’s mouth who is asleep, they will often start sucking on it.
    I’m not sure if these are the actual reflexes or a conscious response to the memory of the reflex.
    So how do the 2 concepts string together and relate to systema? Overload, surprise, confusion I think I would describe it as.
    If your conscious brain is overloaded by some sensory input and the conscious frontal parts of the brain cannot make sense of it, 2 main things happen
    a. The conscious is grasping for more input to explain the situation and becomes suggestible to further to sensory input
    b. The brain starts searching through the subconscious and more primal parts of the brain for reference to explain the situation and on how to respond
    There are a few ways to get the brain into this confused state -
    Surprise (through sensory input) - a sudden movement, by something appearing in front of their eyes, a loud noise, a sharp pain or multiple hits to different parts of the body in quick succession
    Removing or misleading sensory input - covering eyes/sudden darkness, changing horizons/titling head, loss of balance, even misleading or confusing through talking to someone(kinda like traditional hypnotism)
    Emotion - extreme emotion such as anger/rage (often used by boxers - i.e. get inside their head) will affect someone’s ability to think clearly
    Systema works mainly then on 2 principles
    1. Getting the opponent into this confused state.
    2. Using a combination of reflex, suggestion and biomechanics, to control the opponent/situation going forward

    There are levels of the first point, ie how deep and sudden the confusion needs to be before someone becomes compliant. Some people are just naturally more immune to it than others, ask any stage hypnotist. Generally the more clear headed/focused and determined the person/attacker the harder it is to get them into that state and generally how deep the state will be as a result, this goes some way to explaining why Systema doesn't naturally translate to the ring well.
    Ring fighters train hard and condition mentally and physically to protect themselves against that sort of confusion and are less prone to surprise:
    "Don't let him get inside your head, keep calm"
    "Concentrate on your own game"
    "Stick to your training"
    All clichés yes, but also good ways to deflect attempts to misguide and confuse. In systema we use the breathing to do the same thing (as you need to breath anyway might as well use it right)
    The more focused the attacker the bigger the shock to the system has to be for it to work. It certainly is not pleasant when I have experienced it, and this is why systema training is 'compliant' in that sense, ie We work mainly on the 2nd bit to start with and increase the level of intensity as you get psychologically used to receiving and applying the first part. Although there should always be an aspect of the first part at the start of the work to get the person moving. It's not a revolutionary concept, most MA does use it in one way or another just it is kinda explained and approached differently with systema.
    So there’s a bit about my understanding of systema, that’s by far not all of the concepts or methods in any way. Sorry for the long post but I guess I’m just responding to people questions and the title of the thread. Cheers
  4. kelvis is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/10/2013 6:50am


     Style: TKD, BJJ

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Systema:

  5. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/10/2013 7:10am

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     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    4
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Iscape View Post
    Apologies, I may have slightly misrepresented the Wiki quote on Primitive Reflexes in Adults as it was mainly referring to people with specific brain conditions.
    In my experience tho there are certain ways you can get the brain of a normal adult to refer back to some of those primal programming responses(if only for an instant), I will try to explain.
    Stage hypnotism works by getting the conscious brain into a suggestible state, then giving suggestions (mainly verbal) for people to follow.
    If you talk to people who have been hypnotised on stage they will say, "Yes I knew what was going on, I went along with it", that is true, that's how that sort of voluntary hypnotism works, by making you lose your inhibitions and want to go along with what you are told.
    In my experience there are other ways to get the brain into that suggestible state, and other ways to give suggestion rather than verbal.
    As the wiki article states new-born babies have the primal reflexes (selected by evolutionary processes) to give unconscious responses to certain stimuli which in general work to keep the baby safe in certain situations - grasp reflex for clinging on tightly to their mother etc. As the infant develops, the conscious parts of the brain take over control and cancel out the primal reflexes - ie young child can choose whether to cling on or not. Some of these responses can be observed with adults in certain states, called frontal release signs, although there is some debate on the issue.
    A few to try are:
    1. Grasp - relax your hand on the table palm up and stroke a pencil lightly across it, sometimes there will be a slight movement in the fingers and the urge to close your hand, sometimes not.
    2. Startle - Walking in the dark, something brushes your head, you get a jolt of tension through your body esp the neck (a definite over reaction to the light touch and even if it was a solid object not the best reaction to have)
    3. Rooting, Sucking - A funny one is to place a thumb etc (lol) lightly in someone’s mouth who is asleep, they will often start sucking on it.
    I’m not sure if these are the actual reflexes or a conscious response to the memory of the reflex.
    So how do the 2 concepts string together and relate to systema? Overload, surprise, confusion I think I would describe it as.
    If your conscious brain is overloaded by some sensory input and the conscious frontal parts of the brain cannot make sense of it, 2 main things happen
    a. The conscious is grasping for more input to explain the situation and becomes suggestible to further to sensory input
    b. The brain starts searching through the subconscious and more primal parts of the brain for reference to explain the situation and on how to respond
    There are a few ways to get the brain into this confused state -
    Surprise (through sensory input) - a sudden movement, by something appearing in front of their eyes, a loud noise, a sharp pain or multiple hits to different parts of the body in quick succession
    Removing or misleading sensory input - covering eyes/sudden darkness, changing horizons/titling head, loss of balance, even misleading or confusing through talking to someone(kinda like traditional hypnotism)
    Emotion - extreme emotion such as anger/rage (often used by boxers - i.e. get inside their head) will affect someone’s ability to think clearly
    Systema works mainly then on 2 principles
    1. Getting the opponent into this confused state.
    2. Using a combination of reflex, suggestion and biomechanics, to control the opponent/situation going forward

    There are levels of the first point, ie how deep and sudden the confusion needs to be before someone becomes compliant. Some people are just naturally more immune to it than others, ask any stage hypnotist. Generally the more clear headed/focused and determined the person/attacker the harder it is to get them into that state and generally how deep the state will be as a result, this goes some way to explaining why Systema doesn't naturally translate to the ring well.
    Ring fighters train hard and condition mentally and physically to protect themselves against that sort of confusion and are less prone to surprise:
    "Don't let him get inside your head, keep calm"
    "Concentrate on your own game"
    "Stick to your training"
    All clichés yes, but also good ways to deflect attempts to misguide and confuse. In systema we use the breathing to do the same thing (as you need to breath anyway might as well use it right)
    The more focused the attacker the bigger the shock to the system has to be for it to work. It certainly is not pleasant when I have experienced it, and this is why systema training is 'compliant' in that sense, ie We work mainly on the 2nd bit to start with and increase the level of intensity as you get psychologically used to receiving and applying the first part. Although there should always be an aspect of the first part at the start of the work to get the person moving. It's not a revolutionary concept, most MA does use it in one way or another just it is kinda explained and approached differently with systema.
    So there’s a bit about my understanding of systema, that’s by far not all of the concepts or methods in any way. Sorry for the long post but I guess I’m just responding to people questions and the title of the thread. Cheers
    What a bunch of bullshit.
  6. Tranquil Suit is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/10/2013 7:13am

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    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Gotta give Iscape some points for effort and persistence.

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  7. Gezere is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/10/2013 7:25am

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    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Iscape View Post
    Looks like good stuff, there is a lot of solid theory for working on the 3 distances in systema too. Seen Vladimir escape from the mount in at least 20 different ways (and that is with a resisting opponent)
    No you haven't. I am willing to bet you saw 20 performances of VV being allowed to escape the mount. You've never seen him do it with someone who knows how to maintain the mount. I say this because I have seen Systema's idea of escaping the mount and when it came to test it all failed.
    For my fellow grapplers for laughs:

    Yeah NONE of this **** worked
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
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  8. battlefields is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/10/2013 7:50am

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    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DerAuslander View Post
    What a bunch of bullshit.
    Perfect response.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Machette View Post
    Ups to Battlefields for dropping the sage wisdom.

    You are like a Pimp Yoda.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquil Suit View Post
    Battlefields... You're more of a man than I am.
    GET A RED BELT OR DIE TRYIN'.
  9. Gezere is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/10/2013 7:52am

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     Style: Kakutogi

    5
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    What FEDOR as to say about Systema.

    Q: What do you think of the “Russian” combat arts? It’s quite popular now to practice “Slavic styles” of combat, or say the “spetznaz combat art”.

    A (Fedor): I think that the only true Russian fighting style (martial art) is sambo. What people call now days “Russian styles” I honestly do not take seriously. I haven’t seen a single strong school with a solid technique; they most commonly look like amateurs. In fact not “most commonly”, it’s actually what they are – amateurs.
    Why would you try to come up with something Russian, when you can actually practice something Russian? Another example would be religion, why try to demonstrate Orthodoxy, when you can simply live by the Orthodox way?
    http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/?go=...7&page=1&pc=35
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  10. Iscape is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/10/2013 8:18am


     Style: Satanist and BJJ noob

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Gezere View Post
    No you haven't. I am willing to bet you saw 20 performances of VV being allowed to escape the mount. You've never seen him do it with someone who knows how to maintain the mount. I say this because I have seen Systema's idea of escaping the mount and when it came to test it all failed.
    For my fellow grapplers for laughs:

    Yeah NONE of this **** worked
    Fair play, I have had some success with some of those and a couple other escapes from the mount, with non-systema and large 'fully' resisting opponents, I mean they wern't trying to kill me but they were competing for some honour (my personal favourite is the kinda upwards arm bar where you scoop them off you like a shovel) But as you say they were not trained in maintaining the mount.. I guess it's like putting a noob on a rodeo bull and when it throws them saying the bull must know systema :) Would I get in trouble in BJJ trying unfamiliar techniques when rolling? (just for reference)

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