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  1. Gezere is offline
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    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    4/09/2013 8:22am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Iscape View Post
    Totally agree, you want to get into the position where one of those 2 outcomes is a distinct possibility, you're opponent realizes that and so submits/the ref steps in, or if the stakes are higher gets snapped up or put to sleep etc.
    The refs primary job is to keep the fightes safe. A TAP signifies that the person has been put in position that he knows will lead to futher pain of damage. So if the oppenent taps the ref is there to ensure there is no unecessary damage. That however is not a mentality that automatically translates to the streets like you and some many inexpeirence people proclaim.

    Sometimes I have found myself with a lock that is kinda 75% applied, but I can't get the full application, then depending on the opponents pain threshold/flexibility and commitment they may tap or not. It always feels like a big risk to let go of something that is kinda stalemated but keeping you safe to go for all out control.
    This sounds more like inexperience. Recognizing a stalemate and just holding on for holding on sake is what noobs do. Someone who is used to applying said locks knows when to correct a lock and make it work or move on.

    Transitioning smoothly from hold to hold is one of the skills of a real top class fighter.
    No that is the skill of anyone who trains reguirely on actually apply locks to a resisting partner. We do drills to drive the idea home. Example, going from armbar to omoplata to triangle from the guard. That is something I start my white belts off doing. Sure it may take sometime to be proficient but the idea is implanted. It's not just something top class fighters do its something everyone is taught and strive to do.

    In a street situation u will need to judge whether keeping someone restrained until help arrives is possible or if you need to go all out, very much depends on the situation.
    Again this is were experience comes in. I've found that those who compete in combatives sports are more suited to judge what is needed to deal with a situation better than those who only theorize and do half-ass drills about it (Systema).
    What people often forget is that competition has great benefits to training. You are fighting someone you don't regularly train with; you are dealing with the stress of a crowd watching; you get used to be hit, thrown, etc. just to name a few.

    I saw a great example of the above in a UFC fight where the dominant fighter got the guy into 4 or 5 situations where most people would have tapped out but he somehow managed to survive (even the commentators couldn't believe it). The dominant fighter won on decision in the end as he was much more aggressive and clearly in control but it was an amazing display of flexibility and commitment from the other guy (can't find the clip right now but will try and post later).
    Fighers are tough. They're supposed to be. Sure someone who isn't a fighter might succumb to less force but isn't that what you want. My gripe with guys who train for the lowest level guy (the mythical street thug who can whip a sport fighter but will crumble to the theory fighter!) is that you are being unrealsitic. You don't know the level of skill of the person you might get into an altercation with so wouldn't it be smarter to train for someone is his tough and might take considerable effort to beat instea of going, "Well the guy on the street wouldn't know how to double leg" and then find yourself slammed on the ground?
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  2. KickPuncher is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/09/2013 8:45am


     Style: Muay Thai, BJJ

    3
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    Oh my FUCKING GOD! I am so sick of this stupid ****. WE ARE NOT MINDLESS people who are pavlovian conditioned to just let go stand up and walk away when we feel a tap.
    I might let some tension out if I feel a tap on the street to maybe open up some dialogue , but at this point my ability to re-apply said hold will not be compromised if anything I will be in a position to get it even deeper at that point.

    The fact you don't inherently understand this tell me your full of **** and have NEVER trained BJJ or any other grappling art that has a submission system built into it.
    Be careful not to give a standing 8 in the street, either - I've seen that too.
  3. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/09/2013 10:53am

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     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Iscape View Post
    It's great fun and quite representative of a lot of the street situations I have witnessed.
    The only think you have witnessed are Youtube comments and this is why everything you type here are your typical tropes. You don't know dick about grappling, you sure the hell don't know dick about BJJ, and you have no fucking clue how to handle yourself in a fight.

    Let me break something down for you.

    The martial arts that compete expose its students to something that the martial arts that don't compete. They expose the student to a situation where there actual fight or flight mechanism kicks in. Their body actually goes through the same chemical state that it would in an altercation. They get to deal with the nerves the adrenaline dump and all that goodness.

    So at the very least they know how they will react under that sort of pressure.
  4. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/09/2013 11:22am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Gezere View Post
    And that's the thing. Techniques are generally the experession of principles. ALL MA are based on principles, some good some not so much. So for them to say that really makes you wonder if they sat back and actually thought about it.
    It's funny that he keeps describing and naming techniques, but systema guys say they don't use them.
  5. Katje is offline
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    Welterweight

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    Posted On:
    4/09/2013 11:43am

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     Style: Escrima n00b

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Gezere View Post
    You don't know the level of skill of the person you might get into an altercation with so wouldn't it be smarter to train for someone is his tough and might take considerable effort to beat instea of going, "Well the guy on the street wouldn't know how to double leg" and then find yourself slammed on the ground?
    Just to go a bit further with what gezere is saying here, and I feel this is an important point, how do you know that the person attacking you in t3h str33t is not a martial artist? Or at least has some proficiency in martial arts from previous training?

    Don't assume that the only people who start fights are 'lowly' street thugs, there are plenty of martial art schools with plenty of students and at least a small portion of those students are going to get drunk, think they are t3h d34dly and start some **** at some point. Another small portion are the very 'lowly' street thugs you think you're aiming your training at, who have seen this **** on the UFC and want to apply it to a rival's face.

    The other consideration is that, sure, a lot of 'gangstas' are upper working class or middle class kids who think they're badass because they wear saggy pants and call each other "blood". A goodly number, though, are hardened criminals who learned to fight by actually having lots of fights. Fights where there are no holds barred and by losing they could be seriously injured or even killed. They also tend to tip the odds in their favour by keeping buddies around most of the time, so it's unlikely you'll encounter just one of them.

    With that kind of training, if you come up against someone, or several someones, who can REALLY handle themselves in a fight you'll be woefully under prepared. So viewing them as beneath you isn't just patronising, it's downright dangerous.
  6. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/09/2013 12:14pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Oh shutup Katje. You haven't trained at a "REAL"school of martial arts. To be the best you MUST beat the worst. The lowest common denominator always creates the best street savy fighter.

    Geeeeeeeeeeez!
  7. Katje is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/09/2013 12:29pm

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     Style: Escrima n00b

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm sorry Fake..... *hangs head and goes to look for the guys that practice made-up systema in the park*
  8. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/09/2013 12:43pm

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     Style: BJJ

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I personally love this concept that you have a choice on the matter if the fight is going to go to the ground or not.
    As if the football style tackle isn't the worlds most often deployed move in a street fight.
  9. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    4/09/2013 1:01pm

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    I personally love this concept that you have a choice on the matter if the fight is going to go to the ground or not.
    As if the football style tackle isn't the worlds most often deployed move in a street fight.
    Its sort of unfair, though, when you give someone crap for calling a takedown attempt a tackle, then tell them that tackles are the most common fighting technique.
  10. theAsthmatic is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/09/2013 1:29pm


     Style: sambo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CrackFox View Post
    Also if anyone who speaks good Russian could tell me what's supposed to be going on with the guy at the end who I think is described as an "American investigative journalist", that would be cool.
    I speak fluent Russian.

    In the video the live ammo is used by GRU Spetznaz as training to remain calm when faced with death. To psychologically prepare the soldier for performing some technique under said threat. The instructor is junior colonel Alexander Lavrov. Basically most people freeze up when a gun is in their nose, and training with live ammo allegedly eliminates that fear.

    The end of the video is supposedly 'forbidden footage' of 'elite level combatants' who have 'nothing to prove to anyone because they've already proved it in combat'. They are demonstrating 'no contact fighting'.

    verbatim the end of the video:
    "The American Navy Seal did not believe in the reality of the occurring demonstration. So simply he was shown the effectiveness of the theory of our Spetznaz. (Alleged navy seal says OW! and falls over without anyone touching him). "What did he do to me?" he asks. Ensuing laughter. (The idea here is that he was brought down by overwhelming psychic force..)

    ---


    In other words, in my opinion, there are no real Russians who know their history who believe that this nonsense can work.

    (Sorry if someone already answered this, I glanced through the thread and didn't see anything).
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