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  1. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    Oh my FUCKING GOD! I am so sick of this stupid ****. WE ARE NOT MINDLESS people who are pavlovian conditioned to just let go stand up and walk away when we feel a tap.
    I might let some tension out if I feel a tap on the street to maybe open up some dialogue , but at this point my ability to re-apply said hold will not be compromised if anything I will be in a position to get it even deeper at that point.

    The fact you don't inherently understand this tell me your full of **** and have NEVER trained BJJ or any other grappling art that has a submission system built into it.
    Sounds like you know what you're doing so sure crack on. You can't take it for granted tho that everyone will get that. I have done some grappling, not loads tbh, that's 1 reason i'm starting BJJ. My point is in a street situation as you said a pain submission on its own won't always end a confrontation. You have to make sure you are positioned for the break if you need to so you can get up quick and get away or deal with someone else. Or control a lock from the floor all the way as you get up and escort someone etc.
    A good drill to do is 2 people wrestle, when it goes to the floor, 4-5 more people surround them and deliver kicks. Start soft-ish to the body and legs and build up to head kicks and stamps. You can do it with the kickers being neutral or all against one or the other and even with them in split onto sides and fighting with each other too. It's great fun and quite representative of a lot of the street situations I have witnessed.

  2. #102
    Gezere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JingMerchant! View Post
    All the Systema guys, I know - would argue that their's is an MA based on principles and contain no techniques.

    Techniques being far too restrictive.
    And that's the thing. Techniques are generally the experession of principles. ALL MA are based on principles, some good some not so much. So for them to say that really makes you wonder if they sat back and actually thought about it.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh

  3. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iscape View Post
    My point is in a street situation as you said a pain submission on its own won't always end a confrontation.
    Excuse me, but are you suggesting that the point of submission holds is to inflict pain?

    If so, goodlun is entirely correct.

  4. #104
    Gezere's Avatar
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    It is becoming clearer and clearer at ISCAPE doesn't know **** about either competived combat sports or "st33t" fighting.
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    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iscape View Post
    Sounds like you know what you're doing so sure crack on. You can't take it for granted tho that everyone will get that. I have done some grappling, not loads tbh, that's 1 reason i'm starting BJJ. My point is in a street situation as you said a pain submission on its own won't always end a confrontation. You have to make sure you are positioned for the break if you need to so you can get up quick and get away or deal with someone else. Or control a lock from the floor all the way as you get up and escort someone etc.
    A good drill to do is 2 people wrestle, when it goes to the floor, 4-5 more people surround them and deliver kicks. Start soft-ish to the body and legs and build up to head kicks and stamps. You can do it with the kickers being neutral or all against one or the other and even with them in split onto sides and fighting with each other too. It's great fun and quite representative of a lot of the street situations I have witnessed.
    You do realize the whole point of submission holds is to BREAK or RENDER UNCONCIOUS in a fight, right?

    Please stop giving any advice about training because you seem to have problems grasping basic concepts.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gezere View Post
    You do realize the whole point of submission holds is to BREAK or RENDER UNCONCIOUS in a fight, right?
    I am left over angry from a thread in a non-MA forum about MA, where some too daedl33 dumbass brought up this "MMA uses techniques that just cause pain, and won't stop a determined attacker."

    Can anybody (except for Rudy) name a submission that will not cause joint destruction or death if applied to its conclusion? I'm seriously drawing a blank.
    "Your body must be like a stone, your mind... like a meatloaf."

    Quote Originally Posted by strikistanian View Post
    DROP SEIONAGI ************! Except I don't know Judo, so it doesn't work, and he takes my back.
    Quote Originally Posted by Devil
    Why is it so goddamn hard to find a video of it? I've seen videos I'm pretty sure are alien spacecraft. But still no good Krav.

  7. #107
    Gezere's Avatar
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    There pain compliant holds (mainly used by LEOs) but the ones used in BJJ/SAMBO/MMA/etc (ie Armbars, kneebars, heelhooks, RNC, Triangles, etc) all are designed to break or severely damage a joint or bone or render the person unconcious and if held for sufficient time lead to death.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh

  8. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gezere View Post
    You do realize the whole point of submission holds is to BREAK or RENDER UNCONCIOUS in a fight, right?
    Totally agree, you want to get into the position where one of those 2 outcomes is a distinct possibility, you're opponent realizes that and so submits/the ref steps in, or if the stakes are higher gets snapped up or put to sleep etc. Sometimes I have found myself with a lock that is kinda 75% applied, but I can't get the full application, then depending on the opponents pain threshold/flexibility and commitment they may tap or not. It always feels like a big risk to let go of something that is kinda stalemated but keeping you safe to go for all out control. Transitioning smoothly from hold to hold is one of the skills of a real top class fighter. In a street situation u will need to judge whether keeping someone restrained until help arrives is possible or if you need to go all out, very much depends on the situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gezere View Post
    Please stop giving any advice about training because you seem to have problems grasping basic concepts.
    I bow to your experience as a fighter and respected member of these forums, so will keep the training ideas to a minimum. Apologies, just trying to answer the questions from my limited experience.

    I saw a great example of the above in a UFC fight where the dominant fighter got the guy into 4 or 5 situations where most people would have tapped out but he somehow managed to survive (even the commentators couldn't believe it). The dominant fighter won on decision in the end as he was much more aggressive and clearly in control but it was an amazing display of flexibility and commitment from the other guy (can't find the clip right now but will try and post later).

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iscape View Post
    Totally agree, you want to get into the position where one of those 2 outcomes is a distinct possibility, you're opponent realizes that and so submits/the ref steps in, or if the stakes are higher gets snapped up or put to sleep etc. Sometimes I have found myself with a lock that is kinda 75% applied, but I can't get the full application, then depending on the opponents pain threshold/flexibility and commitment they may tap or not. It always feels like a big risk to let go of something that is kinda stalemated but keeping you safe to go for all out control. Transitioning smoothly from hold to hold is one of the skills of a real top class fighter. In a street situation u will need to judge whether keeping someone restrained until help arrives is possible or if you need to go all out, very much depends on the situation.



    I bow to your experience as a fighter and respected member of these forums, so will keep the training ideas to a minimum. Apologies, just trying to answer the questions from my limited experience.

    I saw a great example of the above in a UFC fight where the dominant fighter got the guy into 4 or 5 situations where most people would have tapped out but he somehow managed to survive (even the commentators couldn't believe it). The dominant fighter won on decision in the end as he was much more aggressive and clearly in control but it was an amazing display of flexibility and commitment from the other guy (can't find the clip right now but will try and post later).
    OH FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY SHUT THE **** UP.

    Seriously, your uneducated arse is making a fool of itself.

    You're like an armchair critic except your armchair has wheels and you've been a quadriplegic all your life.
    GET A RED BELT OR DIE TRYIN'.

  10. #110
    Gezere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iscape View Post
    Totally agree, you want to get into the position where one of those 2 outcomes is a distinct possibility, you're opponent realizes that and so submits/the ref steps in, or if the stakes are higher gets snapped up or put to sleep etc.
    The refs primary job is to keep the fightes safe. A TAP signifies that the person has been put in position that he knows will lead to futher pain of damage. So if the oppenent taps the ref is there to ensure there is no unecessary damage. That however is not a mentality that automatically translates to the streets like you and some many inexpeirence people proclaim.

    Sometimes I have found myself with a lock that is kinda 75% applied, but I can't get the full application, then depending on the opponents pain threshold/flexibility and commitment they may tap or not. It always feels like a big risk to let go of something that is kinda stalemated but keeping you safe to go for all out control.
    This sounds more like inexperience. Recognizing a stalemate and just holding on for holding on sake is what noobs do. Someone who is used to applying said locks knows when to correct a lock and make it work or move on.

    Transitioning smoothly from hold to hold is one of the skills of a real top class fighter.
    No that is the skill of anyone who trains reguirely on actually apply locks to a resisting partner. We do drills to drive the idea home. Example, going from armbar to omoplata to triangle from the guard. That is something I start my white belts off doing. Sure it may take sometime to be proficient but the idea is implanted. It's not just something top class fighters do its something everyone is taught and strive to do.

    In a street situation u will need to judge whether keeping someone restrained until help arrives is possible or if you need to go all out, very much depends on the situation.
    Again this is were experience comes in. I've found that those who compete in combatives sports are more suited to judge what is needed to deal with a situation better than those who only theorize and do half-ass drills about it (Systema).
    What people often forget is that competition has great benefits to training. You are fighting someone you don't regularly train with; you are dealing with the stress of a crowd watching; you get used to be hit, thrown, etc. just to name a few.

    I saw a great example of the above in a UFC fight where the dominant fighter got the guy into 4 or 5 situations where most people would have tapped out but he somehow managed to survive (even the commentators couldn't believe it). The dominant fighter won on decision in the end as he was much more aggressive and clearly in control but it was an amazing display of flexibility and commitment from the other guy (can't find the clip right now but will try and post later).
    Fighers are tough. They're supposed to be. Sure someone who isn't a fighter might succumb to less force but isn't that what you want. My gripe with guys who train for the lowest level guy (the mythical street thug who can whip a sport fighter but will crumble to the theory fighter!) is that you are being unrealsitic. You don't know the level of skill of the person you might get into an altercation with so wouldn't it be smarter to train for someone is his tough and might take considerable effort to beat instea of going, "Well the guy on the street wouldn't know how to double leg" and then find yourself slammed on the ground?
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh

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