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  1. TheRuss is offline
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    is badder than you

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    Posted On:
    4/07/2013 9:06pm

    Join us... or die
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The ads I'm seeing for this thread right now are for metal detectors.
    You know, so you can find gold.
    Which is just laying around.
    All over the place.

    Have I mentioned my main issue with bitcoins yet?

    If you multiply the recent "weighted average" exchange rate of a bitcoin with the number of bitcoins issued, the sum is something like $1,826,765,597 right now. But if there is $1.8 billion of bitcoin-denominated goods and services to be purchased out there right now, I will eat my hat, and that won't happen because neither my hat nor those goods and services exist.

    And they don't even have to be physical things. Movies, music, newspaper/journal articles, art commissions, cloud hosting/number crunching services... Hell, bitcoins would be an ideal way to pay camgirls for showing some nipple, except that nobody's taking them as a form of payment.

    The currency does have a crude measure of monetary velocity built into it: the transaction fees encoded in each block. Right now the fees per block are a piddling little amount, which implies that people are speculating, and trying to hold onto bitcoins as a store of value (blindingly stupid) or time the bubble (second-order stupid) rather than actually use them as a tool for transactions (potentially viable).



    EDIT: Also also, speaking of 1) ads on this thread and 2) bubbles, you remember the bitcoin mining box I mentioned earlier?

    Compare the site now: https://products.butterflylabs.com/h...oin-miner.html
    To a month or so ago: http://web.archive.org/web/201302140...oin-miner.html

    One month ago:

    http://web.archive.org/web/201302140...oin-miner.html
    30 GHash/second
    $649.00
    initial shipping scheduled for the last half of February 2013

    Now:
    https://products.butterflylabs.com/h...oin-miner.html
    25 GHash/second
    $1,249.00
    initial shipping scheduled for the last half of April 2013.... delivery may take 2 months or more after order.
    Last edited by TheRuss; 4/07/2013 9:11pm at .
    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas View Post
    Downstreet on the flip-flop, timepants.
  2. CoffeeFan is offline
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    Certified Personal Trainer and Drinker of Coffee

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    Posted On:
    4/07/2013 10:27pm

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     Style: SAMBO/BJJ/Judo and others

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Cool idea, but yea it defiantly favors those early investors.....
  3. Rivington is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/07/2013 10:55pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by RurikGreenwulf View Post
    So, I just started mining this bitcoins

    is there any chance I can change them to dollars? or is this just some bullshit?
    You can, if you do it soon.
  4. Rivington is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/07/2013 10:59pm

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    3
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost View Post
    Let me introduce you to Confiscation and Asset Seizure laws currently being practiced at border crossings and on American highways, then you let me know when I can back up those pieces of paper in an encrypted format that would take several thousand years to crack.
    Let me introduce you to the guys with the computer system that wouldn't need to crack anything, when they can just start mining bitcoins at any rate they choose, and trade them among any number of wallets, and thus influence the price however they like, including way more than you could ever sell one for, or zero.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  5. Rivington is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/07/2013 11:16pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost View Post
    Dude, that's just as tinfoil as believing Bitcoin will genuinely overthrow the financial establishment and create an AnCap utopia.
    This was you, on p.1 of this thread: Deflation? I don't Economics.

    To which I can only say, "Yeah, I've noticed."

    Do you really think "Some guy comes up with a pump and dump play" is as nuts as believing in AnCap utopias?

    Because nobody ever pumps and dumps, including pumps and dumps of fake ****, and nobody has ever been part of the libertarian right and a pump and dump?
    Last edited by Rivington; 4/07/2013 11:32pm at .
  6. W. Rabbit is offline
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    insight combined with intel, fuse, and dynamite

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    Posted On:
    4/08/2013 12:43am

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    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Rivington View Post
    Let me introduce you to the guys with the computer system that wouldn't need to crack anything, when they can just start mining bitcoins at any rate they choose, and trade them among any number of wallets, and thus influence the price however they like, including way more than you could ever sell one for, or zero.
    They could also do this:

    http://blogs.cornell.edu/info4220/20...nding-problem/

    If a user controls the majority of computational power in the mining network, they can manipulate this to their advantage by creating two diverging chains: one in which the money goes right back into their own wallet, and another sending money to a seller. In the “>50% attack”, one would invalidate the chain sending bitcoins to the seller, while keeping both the cost and income of that transaction. This attack is infeasible for any single user (unless they’re in possession of multiple supercomputers), as it would require enormous power to recompute the hashes of all the previous blocks in a chain. With a powerful botnet engaged in bitcoin mining, this attack becomes more likely, but this has not yet been a problem...
    ...
    So far, the Bitcoin has successfully mitigated the incentive for attempting to double-spend by making the information about its transaction history public, and hard to misrepresent, but some detection faults threaten to allow for the development of dangerously large information asymmetries.
    That just sounds very bad.
  7. TheRuss is offline
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    is badder than you

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    Posted On:
    4/08/2013 1:23am

    Join us... or die
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Rivington View Post
    Let me introduce you to the guys with the computer system that wouldn't need to crack anything, when they can just start mining bitcoins at any rate they choose, and trade them among any number of wallets, and thus influence the price however they like, including way more than you could ever sell one for, or zero.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    They can't actually mine bitcoins "at any rate they choose" because of the adaptive difficulty.

    However, W. Rabbit's point about the 50%+1 attack is valid: If this datacenter was exclusively running ATI 5970-equivalent cards mining bitcoin, that would get them 130 PHash/sec, which is double the current world output (60 PHash/sec).

    Of course, soon a bunch of ASIC miners will increase that figure by an order of magnitude (unless the bubble busts really soon), which would probably* push the NSA back down to a minority share.

    Until they threw a few million dollars at their own ASICs and cornered the market again.

    * Unless they've already got hardware, in volume, that is better suited to the Bitcoin proof-of-work calculations than GPGPUs. Which they might.
    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas View Post
    Downstreet on the flip-flop, timepants.
  8. RurikGreenwulf is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/08/2013 6:10pm


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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Rivington View Post
    You can, if you do it soon.
    Awesome!
    Well, Its 80% finished mining something

    I guess for us in south america mining would be much more plausible as a full time job as you can live very comfy with 600 U.S dollars a month (above average for a entry-level factory worker)

    to put it in martial perspective

    training with the national Judo team 60 dollars per month
    full access to a MMA academy also 60 dollars per month
    full access to BJJ also 60 dollars per month

    hmmmm that looks suspicious particulary as the BJJ price its the same for 3 different academies
    Last edited by RurikGreenwulf; 4/08/2013 6:14pm at .
  9. Permalost is online now
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    4/08/2013 6:16pm

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    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by RurikGreenwulf View Post
    I guess for us in south america mining would be much more plausible as a full time job as you can live very comfy with 600 U.S dollars a month (above average for a entry-level factory worker)
    Seems that the more likely a place is to be poor, the less likely it is to accept Bitcoins for anything useful.
  10. Rivington is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/08/2013 6:52pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    Seems that the more likely a place is to be poor, the less likely it is to accept Bitcoins for anything useful.
    He would just sell it to a US-based sucker on MtGox or another exchange.
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