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  1. Nefron is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/05/2013 1:39pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I know a certain moron that discovered the deep net and all of its illegal wonders. He wanted me to build a botnet for mining bitcoins. Since I'm not really into bitcoin world domination, and he couldn't come near in providing the required financial compensation in real muneez the whole thing fell through, of course.

    He was a pretty persistant moron though, and he finally backed off when I offered to sell him a few of these.

    I also have a math graduate friend who got hired to do some cost benefit calculations for a bitcoin farm. That project also got scrapped.
  2. Rivington is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/05/2013 1:46pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by franginho View Post
    Well, so much for the proof of concept.
    Oh and for all those ney-sayers, What do you think will happen if banks, your country who ever stops using your currency of choice?
    Money always is a contract of society, and you are betting your livelihood on people honoring it. think about it.
    Yes, and we have several centuries demonstrating that states are generally pretty good at keeping that particular contract going, and several months demonstrating that The Internet Bank of Some Guy is already a ****-up.
  3. Rivington is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/05/2013 1:47pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by franginho View Post
    And who the **** tells you that anybody will take your gold? Seriously... think that one to the end.
    You mean other than the last seven thousand years of civilization? In any situation so dear that gold (and silver) are no longer considered stores of value, the chances of there being sufficient electricity and connectivity to show that your bitcoins exist in your virtual wallet are vanishingly small.
  4. franginho is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/05/2013 1:58pm


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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Have a look at what happened during the massive inflation in Germany in the late twenties of the past century... Or what happened in East Germany during the 80s... money can only buy you something if people think that it will get them something in return in the future!
    There was a rather stable currency in place in East Germany but people would exchange products and services directly because the money the had/could have had, wasn't exchangeable further down the line.

    Also, little experiment, try to buy some groceries with a clunker of gold, but try to keep the value of the gold as close to the value of your purchase as possible.
    Report back please.
    Your entire idea works IF everybody else believes it will work (same for the bitcoin thing).
  5. Rivington is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/05/2013 2:29pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by franginho View Post
    Have a look at what happened during the massive inflation in Germany in the late twenties of the past century...
    What about it? By the way, you mean early 1920s. Tell you what: describe a model of hyperinflation and use it to explain what happened in Germany in 1923. Then we'll see if you actually know what you're talking about. If you cut and paste from Wikipedia, or lift sources from it, you automatically lose.

    Or what happened in East Germany during the 80s... money can only buy you something if people think that it will get them something in return in the future!
    There was a rather stable currency in place in East Germany but people would exchange products and services directly because the money the had/could have had, wasn't exchangeable further down the line.
    You know, that's the exact opposite of hyperinflation, right. So, what makes you think bitcoin will be any more exchangeable than East German currency?

    Also, little experiment, try to buy some groceries with a clunker of gold, but try to keep the value of the gold as close to the value of your purchase as possible.
    Report back please.
    Will do. Step #1. You stake me the clunker of gold. I promise I'll return it if I can't buy its weight in groceries. (An alternative Step #1—tell me why you won't stake me in the way that doesn't implicitly acknowledge that gold is a store of value.)

    Your entire idea works IF everybody else believes it will work (same for the bitcoin thing).
    So, you hold to a vulgar confidence model of money, but are using it to argue in favor of a low-confidence volatile currency that is neither generalizable in exchange nor an obvious store of value given the moves its making? Really? REALLY?

    Jesus son, next time your teacher has you in a blood choke, tap out. Your brain needs the oxygen.
  6. franginho is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/05/2013 2:53pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You are reading my points wrong, either on purpose or just because...

    I said, digital money, real money and gold all work based on the assumption of all participants withing the economic system, that they will be able to exchange goods or services for it in the future, at a rate that is equivalent (or moderately diminished for most economies - inflation bla bla bla) to its current perceived value.

    My point being, no matter if you use gold or bitcoins, the system is based on the faith everybody has in it. And your FIAT money in the US is no different to Gold when SHTF. - insert discussion about Gold-standard here -
    Heck people invest in Gold to hatch inflation risks etc. but if your bankingsystem and or your economy goes down hill, what help will it be? (I am not even going into the issue of you actually having to store it physically to have even the remote chance of protecting some value). Why because, as you point it out, it is perceived as valuable, because it is limited and in case of gold, one can actually make stuff out of it, heck we could use tea... o wait, the chines already did that. Are you going to trade in tea? Salt, Pepper? All have been used in the past...

    I am not defending any of the monetary systems, I am just pointing out that some are more "stable" because more people trust/believe in the underlying conditions.
  7. Rivington is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/05/2013 3:05pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by franginho View Post
    You are reading my points wrong, either on purpose or just because...
    No, I am not.

    I said, digital money, real money and gold all work based on the assumption of all participants withing the economic system, that they will be able to exchange goods or services for it in the future, at a rate that is equivalent (or moderately diminished for most economies - inflation bla bla bla) to its current perceived value.
    Right, this is the vulgar version of the confidence model. So I was reading your posts correctly.

    My point being, no matter if you use gold or bitcoins, the system is based on the faith everybody has in it. And your FIAT money in the US is no different to Gold when SHTF.
    Right, and this is the stupid gibberish one would expect from someone who holds to a vulgar version of the confidence model. So again, I am reading your posts correctly. You're just repeating yourself over and over because you think I misunderstand you. I understand you fine. I actually just disagree with you, but only because I know more than you do.

    Heck people invest in Gold to hatch inflation risks etc. but if your bankingsystem and or your economy goes down hill, what help will it be?
    Gold is a hedge against instability, not just inflation. It is a good hedge because it is portable, relatively rare, relatively liquid, and durable.

    (I am not even going into the issue of you actually having to store it physically to have even the remote chance of protecting some value).
    Unless you're posting on bullshido by licking a telephone pole and thinking good thoughts, you have something portable, of value, right in front of you. Have you managed to keep it out of the hands of criminals? See, it's not that hard. And since your argument is that when **** hits the fan gold won't have any value either, it's rather foolish to also argue that it needs careful protection from people who'd steal it and...do what exactly, if it isn't a store of value?

    Anyway, still waiting for my "clunker" of gold.


    Are you going to trade in tea? Salt, Pepper? All have been used in the past...
    Can you think for a few seconds about the difference between tea, salt, pepper, and gold? By yourself, in your mind, I mean. If you do it here, you'll just embarrass yourself further.

    I am not defending any of the monetary systems, I am just pointing out that some are more "stable" because more people trust/believe in the underlying conditions.
    Yes, I KNOW you're a believer in a vulgar version of the confidence model of money. Say it a dozen more times, it won't change anything.
  8. franginho is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/05/2013 3:40pm


     Style: JiuJistu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Rivington View Post
    I actually just disagree with you,
    I will just address this.
    You say in your initial post in this thread, that bitcoins are not going to work because they are digital and will be measured against something physical... (please let me know if you are not holding that as your main assumption).

    I then pointed out the move from direct trade of goods to a proxy (gold in my example) to the current FIAT system to BitCoins. Heck, if you want, add the credit system in the middle to remove your direct relation to anything physical even further and insert another trust layer.

    All those steps before the bitcoin have proven that we can remove the physical object of trade further from the transaction over time, by building confidence (as I pointed out - you call it vulgar - why not use the word common in the first place?).

    I then went to point out that most people wouldn't use your physical reference (gold) in most cases, for various reasons (storage, availability - how many people do have gold lying around? - And the robber thing is just a red hering, social contract once more).

    Look at the trend, most money transactions today are already digital, most of the money is moved digitally (or are you getting paid in cash in a lunch bag at the end of the month? Do you pay your phonebill in cash? Do you use a debit or credit card?) and we don't get to see it most of times. This is a huge step compared to only 100 years ago.

    So why do you thing that the trend to a completely digital transaction is not going to happen? How come the financial system hasn't collapsed when Nixon (if I recall correctly sometime in the 70s) announced the dropping of the gold standard? You so vigorously try to defend a physical reference while history has shown that it can be removed, over time?

    Do I believe that bit coins will be the next money? No, but I say that it is as good as any as long as (circle) people want to use it.
  9. Rivington is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/05/2013 3:47pm

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    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by franginho View Post
    I will just address this.
    You say in your initial post in this thread, that bitcoins are not going to work because they are digital and will be measured against something physical... (please let me know if you are not holding that as your main assumption).
    My actual initial post on this thread:


    Five lucky bitcoin-holders are issued golden tickets to meet Ron Paul in his magic chocolate factory.


    My second post, which you seem to be referring to makes no reference to bitcoins being measured against something physical.

    Conclusion: you are retarded.


    All those steps before the bitcoin have proven that we can remove the physical object of trade further from the transaction over time, by building confidence (as I pointed out - you call it vulgar - why not use the word common in the first place?).
    Vulgar is a term of art. It basically means "the stupid version." In the future, I will explain that you hold to the stupid version of the confidence theory of money.

    I then went to point out that most people wouldn't use your physical reference (gold) in most cases for various reasons (storage, availability - how many people do have gold lying around? - And the robber thing is just a red hering, social contract once more).
    Actually, you asked what would happen if fiat money vanished—if even banks stopped using it. It is extremely likely that gold will be used as a medium of exchange in those circumstances, which are themselves extremely unlikely. And I would say that the majority of people in the US at least have gold lying around, mostly in the form of jewelry.

    So why do you thing that the trend to a completely digital transaction is not going to happen? How come the financial system hasn't collapsed when Nixon (if I recall correctly sometime in the 70s) announced the dropping of the gold standard? You so vigorously try to defend a physical reference while history has shown that it can be removed, over time?
    I never defended a physical reference to fiat money, you idiot. Nor are bitcoins simply digital transactions of American dollars or euros or other convertible currencies (which is what you are describing), they are a new form of currency created by an algorithm without the backing of any state.
  10. franginho is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/05/2013 4:01pm


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    -2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Rivington View Post
    My actual initial post on this thread:


    Five lucky bitcoin-holders are issued golden tickets to meet Ron Paul in his magic chocolate factory.
    Sorry, I was ignoring that thing.

    My second post, which you seem to be referring to makes no reference to bitcoins being measured against something physical.

    Conclusion: you are retarded.
    Yes you do... and I quote:
    The chances of you buying an orange with it at the corner store are very slim—it's just high-tech nerd to high-tech nerd transfers.
    You set them to the standard of a physical transaction (orange - money).

    Vulgar is a term of art. It basically means "the stupid version." In the future, I will explain that you hold to the stupid version of the confidence theory of money.
    Nope you are a dip **** for believing so. Vulgar is from Vulgare which is common. It is used by dipshits like you to pretend to be better. So the joke is on you.


    Actually, you asked what would happen if fiat money vanished—if even banks stopped using it. It is extremely likely that gold will be used as a medium of exchange in those circumstances, which are themselves extremely unlikely. And I would say that the majority of people in the US at least have gold lying around, mostly in the form of jewelry.
    Yes they do have that... once more, look how long this stuff lasts when things go down hill. I once again refer you to Germany. It will work initially and then break down too.

    I never defended a physical reference to fiat money, you idiot. Nor are bitcoins simply digital transactions of American dollars or euros or other convertible currencies (which is what you are describing), they are a new form of currency created by an algorithm without the backing of any state.
    You do defend fiat money by proxy...
    I did not say that they are anything but a proof of concept that it your american dollars could be replaced by a pure digital form. And that it is a logical and very plausible step.
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