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  1. Mr.Miyagi is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/30/2013 10:18pm


     Style: BJJ/Zumba

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Supreme View Post
    I didn't take it that way either. It just seems like something I expect to hear out of blue belts. How do I know? Guess what my "Blue" belts keep asking me?
    Haha, ah ok. I guess maybe it is a blue belt (2-4 years training) thing then?

    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Supreme View Post
    Grappling requires a myriad of different muscle groups, if the exercises are covering these muscle groups then you're gaining something from it.
    Yeah, I understand that and agree. I think I'm just disagreeing on the running around part and want to replace it with something I find more mentally stimulating and closer to the grappling that I love.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Supreme View Post
    I think you're contradicting yourself here. You don't see the benefit of "running" around doing 15 minutes of drills unless they have something to do what you're supposed to learn? You lost me. Let me see, 5 minutes to get your cardio up to a proper level, shrimping, dive bombers, side rocks, falls, sit outs.....I'm up to 15 minutes depending upon the size of the class. What am I missing here?
    Ok, so bit of confusion there. Specifically just running around for 15 minutes, I don't see the benefit of it: including things like cartwheels, frog jumping over backs, and fireman carries (dude on your shoulder as you run around) straight away, of which I myself am more inclined to hurt myself compared to the general technique side of things I'd do in a class.

    I'm fine for specific grappling warm ups like shrimping etc--some of the wording of you've used I'm not familiar with, looked it up yeah that's fine, we're talking about the same things. Just hitting the main groupings to get the blood flowing through them depending on the class being done. Funnily, I find I spent about 30 minutes warming up at open mats on Fridays as I go through my own routine to work out my own body, but this is because I know I'll be rolling right away even if it is into flow rolling, otherwise I'll do quick dynamic stretching, into flow rolling to get the blood moving, then increase resistance with rolling partners until we're close to where we want to be. Seems to work really well.

    I'm just against running around for 15 minutes, and warm ups that end up being conditioning classes in my actual grappling class. We have separate conditioning classes at the gym 5 days a week you can do that aren't in my BJJ class.


    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Supreme View Post
    This is going to sound wrong but how old are you? Sincerely. So I can use the proper metaphor/analogy.
    Haha, that's ok: 28. Professional project manager if that helps an analogy anywhere also.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Supreme View Post
    Not touching this one.
    Fair enough, just wanted to reference where it was mentioned before!

    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Supreme View Post
    That's something you've got to talk to your instructor with. Give me your answers to the above and then I'll go into more detail.
    Mainly that question was just in response to your previous response to the similar topic. I think our warmups at my gym currently are pretty good. Some are a bit longer/harder than I think they need to be, but I can see the reason for them when it comes back to technique, as they are VERY technique focused or range of motion focused, which I'm cool with.

    Damn, topic has gone into greater depth than I thought I would, but I'm finding it really interesting.

    Thanks for taking the time to answer!
  2. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/30/2013 10:35pm

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     Style: Chinese Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Miyagi View Post
    Haha, ah ok. I guess maybe it is a blue belt (2-4 years training) thing then?
    Yeah.



    Yeah, I understand that and agree. I think I'm just disagreeing on the running around part and want to replace it with something I find more mentally stimulating and closer to the grappling that I love.
    Again this is a bridge you have to cross. My female grapplers get it much sooner than the guys.



    Ok, so bit of confusion there. Specifically just running around for 15 minutes, I don't see the benefit of it: including things like cartwheels, frog jumping over backs, and fireman carries (dude on your shoulder as you run around) straight away, of which I myself am more inclined to hurt myself compared to the general technique side of things I'd do in a class.
    Core engagement exercises.

    I'm fine for specific grappling warm ups like shrimping etc--some of the wording of you've used I'm not familiar with, looked it up yeah that's fine, we're talking about the same things. Just hitting the main groupings to get the blood flowing through them depending on the class being done. Funnily, I find I spent about 30 minutes warming up at open mats on Fridays as I go through my own routine to work out my own body, but this is because I know I'll be rolling right away even if it is into flow rolling, otherwise I'll do quick dynamic stretching, into flow rolling to get the blood moving, then increase resistance with rolling partners until we're close to where we want to be. Seems to work really well.

    I'm just against running around for 15 minutes, and warm ups that end up being conditioning classes in my actual grappling class. We have separate conditioning classes at the gym 5 days a week you can do that aren't in my BJJ class.
    My experience in this area was telling everybody that we would have a separate grappling conditioning class that nobody showed up to and everybody showed up to just grapple and worse skip the technique section. So one day I took everybody aside and showed them how stupid they were being and cut it out all together.




    Haha, that's ok: 28. Professional project manager if that helps an analogy anywhere also.
    Remember how idealistic you were when you were 18 and you could conquer the world? What do you think now? Guess what, it's going to change again soon and again 10 years from then. My life changed when my daughter was born. I can't explain this to people who don't have kids. They think they know but they don't.



    Mainly that question was just in response to your previous response to the similar topic. I think our warmups at my gym currently are pretty good. Some are a bit longer/harder than I think they need to be, but I can see the reason for them when it comes back to technique, as they are VERY technique focused or range of motion focused, which I'm cool with.

    Damn, topic has gone into greater depth than I thought I would, but I'm finding it really interesting.

    Thanks for taking the time to answer!
    I know the remark came off a bit snide but it is what it is. Sometimes there's no way addressing it minus just ignoring the statement all together.
  3. Vieux Normand is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/31/2013 8:17am

    Join us... or die
     Style: 血鷲

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm firmly in the "include-shitloads-of-conditioning" camp.

    If anyone wants to advance the idea of fitness-testing for newbs (with reductions and possible exemptions, from in-house conditioning requirements, for those who demonstrate they are already extremely-fit), that might be worth a listen.

    OTOH, those self-disciplined enough to be already well-conditioned before they walk in the door won't likely be the ones asking for any kind of exemptions.
  4. Sang is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/31/2013 8:25am


     Style: MMA, Yoga

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm ok with conditioning, just call it conditioning and have a proper warm up first. I've had classes where the warm up techniques are more dynamic/dangerous to do cold than any BJJ technique. Its a complete joke doing some of these moves after 20 seconds of running in a circle.
    "Boxing is the art of hitting an opponent from the furthest distance away, exposing the least amount of your body while getting into position to punch with maximum leverage and not getting hit."
    Kenny Weldon
  5. cualltaigh is online now
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    Posted On:
    3/31/2013 4:28pm


     Style: BJJ, MMA, JJJ

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    During the week we do 30-45min striking/MMA class before the BJJ class. We still do the shrimping and upa drills to begin the BJJ class.

    Our coach is very practical in what he teaches. If he asked to play hopscotch for 20mins before technique/drills I would assume it had some direct benefit to what he's teaching and just do it. Cause my job is to stfu and learn.
    Dum spiro, spero.
    Tada gan iarracht.
  6. Lv1Sierpinski is online now

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    Posted On:
    4/01/2013 6:44am


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    At my BJJ school we had a bit of variability, some times we'd just get warm (some movement drills, light rolling, etc.) and other times it had more of a crushing, conditioning flavor to it.

    Then we learned and rolled...you just got on with whatever you were told to do.

    Pretty simple really.
  7. erezb is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/01/2013 8:23am


     Style: Boxing,Kickboxing K1

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Rokujukyu View Post
    Running around & doing a cardio workout before being taught technique is utter rubbish.
    If someone wants to get shape go to the gym & lift weights or do pilaties I don't care what it is, just do it in your own time. I've been through hundreds of lessons now & I can't stand the running in circles stuff.

    I agree with getting your upa/shrimping perfect as it is really helpful as well as getting your body warmed up. Practicing some drills & doing stretches for injury prevention is all that is needed to be ready for a lesson.

    The amount of different techniques to learn when starting off is hard enough to remember already and getting in a decent time practicing/drilling those same moves can really make the difference between wanting to stay one gym or another.

    Most lesson don't include many new techniques & trying to remember five or more moves in one lesson could be very difficult for many students. So why limit the amount of time given to practicing/drilling the two or three moves? I'm pretty sure that the more times you do this type of thing the you better you get.
    What you said about not enough time drilling technique is true, if you train only twice a week, if you train more often, like 4,5 times, than you see that this kind of training is exactly what you need to be fighting fit and technically sound.
    Fitness is arguably more important than technique, or at least on par.
    While you drill, though it is taxing, it is not fitness focused, so you need to divide the class to about 50/50 .
    If you had a better training program (more classes during the week), or a personal one, you could have had a better separation of the two.
    Otherwise, your coach needs to get you fit just as he needs to teach you technique in the 4 hours a week you have.
  8. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/01/2013 12:30pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by erezb View Post
    Fitness is arguably more important than technique, or at least on par.
    While you drill, though it is taxing, it is not fitness focused, so you need to divide the class to about 50/50 .
    I can not tell you how extremely wrong you are. Fitness is important for a number of reasons but technique is king. Point and case you can take the most fit yoked out body builder that loves to run marathons as well. Put them on the mat with a cubby recreational purple belt and guess who is going to win every time.
  9. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/01/2013 1:29pm

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     Style: Chinese Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
  10. Mr.Miyagi is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/02/2013 12:14am


     Style: BJJ/Zumba

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Just on the off-topic/culled component: On the whole, and knowing Rok, I definitely think that Rok was off-put in the way people post, probably not aware YMAS is a let loose area either. I also don't think he understands that the TAGS we have here on Bullshido actually represent something compared to say Sherdog etc where it's just a "POST COUNT" type deal. So, not having spoken to him about it, his pre-conceived notion could have been "Oh, here's this guy with lots of things above his name, acting like how I think an online bully would act on other forums and talking out his ass and telling me his point of view and feeling like it's belittling mine because I'm a new poster etc etc guy obviously doesn't train enough to be picking on me in this thread." That combined with his aggressive responses to Omega kept escalting things between them; but I think it's a misunderstanding from his point of view. But I'll let him clear any of that up~!

    I guess a 'firey' introduction to Bullshido, haha.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Supreme View Post
    Yeah.
    Hmm, can I delve into this further and ask you why you think that is (2-4 year questioning) as an instructor? For me, it became more to do with wanting to spend MORE time on actual drills and techniques (not more techniques, just more time on the few we were going over for that class). Is it something to do with hitting this point for guys, then (if women seem to get it earlier), and the 'comfort' level of the art itself? Or is it something else? I don't really feel it's a 'rebelliousness' (tying in with the teenage years thing) against the instructor, but should be open for some adult discussion back and forth type thing.

    For me it's not the case of "I know best for all" but that 'I know my body' and if I can give feedback that would make me happier in class, awesome.

    Our classes are pretty cool, and the instructors are all open to feedback and mention as such at the end of every so class. I was very close to asking to tone down the starts of the classes from so much cardio and what I felt was over the top stuff for warm ups and then they were adjusted before I said anything.

    Usually we're there before the offical class flow rolling, drilling, and leading into just free-rolling ourselves in a tiny free space so we're past warmed up by the time we hit the main class; I realise this isn't the same for everyone, just something from my point of view.


    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Supreme View Post
    Again this is a bridge you have to cross. My female grapplers get it much sooner than the guys.
    I guess this one ties to the top question, mostly. By 'bridge' do you mean accepting what you are being told to do by the instructor and needing to take that on board and just do it?


    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Supreme View Post
    Core engagement exercises.
    Yes, but I also feel like these are high risk before actually being warm, as well. I do agree with having a warm up that relates back to being closer to what is being taught for that lesson so those aspects are taken into account specifically when warming up.

    E.G. instead of running around doing fireman's carries with the weight on my discs out of alignment, I'd rather drill shooting doubles and lifting my partner, or duck unders to body lift from the back to warm up my back etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Supreme View Post
    My experience in this area was telling everybody that we would have a separate grappling conditioning class that nobody showed up to and everybody showed up to just grapple and worse skip the technique section. So one day I took everybody aside and showed them how stupid they were being and cut it out all together.
    We have these separate, as we also cater to fitness members that aren't really into martial arts as well. Most of the guys that compete or otherwise are 'serious' hobbyists have their own training they do separately, be it weights or cardio.

    We have specific times for open mat classes for free-rolling, and for our set classes we almost always are doing techniques or drills, and I don't think most people want to skip this. Sometimes I FEEL like I want to do more free rolling, but that's to practice technique in a live way to see if I can hit setups, feel timings I've been working on. But it was a very short time when I wanted to ONLY ROLL (like 2 weeks at the beginning of blue belt when I wanted to try leg locks all the time) and not do any technique at all. So with my experience at our gym the classes don't seem to want this, or we just have enough access to other times to do this enough it's not a overlying problem.

    Sometimes it is awesome just to have those classes (leading up to comps, gradings, or otherwise) as just a quick warm-up and then rounds at 20% - 50% - 75% - full control all class, but this is only at very specific times.


    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Supreme View Post
    Remember how idealistic you were when you were 18 and you could conquer the world? What do you think now? Guess what, it's going to change again soon and again 10 years from then. My life changed when my daughter was born. I can't explain this to people who don't have kids. They think they know but they don't.
    I was a pretty pragmatic and cynical 18 year old, the same as I was when I was 10, haha; however, I note your point. I understand what you are getting at, but as you've said, can't empathise completely on the father aspect.

    I only have small adjustments in my world view as I gain further information to review and decide if I need to reformulate an opinion. I'm open minded, but have also always challenged my own assertions, also relying on a lot of empirical evidence as to the 'why' of things, and that's how I understand them. Which is why, I guess, I'm taking time to respond and hunt down a reason for things now ;).


    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Supreme View Post
    I know the remark came off a bit snide but it is what it is. Sometimes there's no way addressing it minus just ignoring the statement all together.
    Ah that's all good, that was your comment from the past! So I accept if you do not wish to discuss it or you have changed your mind. I didn't do a good job of explaining while it was Jascul's thread, you had posted in it, and the item I quoted was your response in that thread.
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