Posted On:3/19/2013 1:35pm
I wanna know, why I have to run around in a circle, crab and shrimp until I'm fucking exhausted and my brain no longer works well enough to retain any new learning information just to take a beginner JuJitsu (BJJ class)
yeah, lets get this out of the way, I'm a certified mental patient with a pack and a half cigarette problem, but I can run a mile or two no problem believe it or not and throw a damn good jab and right cross.... I'm not a complete retard, but i'm glad you asked up front....
When I learned to box. I learned the basics of stance and then footwork first. THEN, and only THEN did they start kicking the **** out of my fat pasty ass (I'm not that fat but I got a 1 pack now, I'm 31 now, started boxing when I was 16, yeah I know that's not a real excuse but I like beer and junk food so **** you). The point is, they were polite, they showed me new ****, then they dogged me. Not dogged me then tried to show me new **** while collecting a paycheck....... Same ****, different order.
Seriously though. Bas Fucking Rutten learned to grapple, on his own, with copies of fight replay videos and a good and trustworthy sparring partner who didn't know JuJitsu either.. He's pretty good at BJJ from my perspective. AND, AND I suspect he did NOT purposely exhaust both himself and his sparring partner before each grappling study session...... I could be wrong, but that's just a hunch....
Then how come, out of the 3 JuJitsu schools (in North America) I've tried so far (you correct me if most are not actually like this....), why did they all run the same dog your ass mentality first, and then when you are winded as a mother fucker we'll teach you 1 maybe two moves and make sure your membership is paid, this is going to take 3 f'ing years until you get the basics down, now go grapple even though you don't no **** about grapple, but I'll be rich by that time off your noob ass figures it out, 200+ $$$ a month dojo....)
I suspect, now hear me out (because I have been in multiple times over, and can get in great shape and am in decent form now performance wise (not visually, I got a 1 pack like I said), so I'm not making complete excuses here)... that foundational skills are not best learned while in a state of utter physical and hence mental exhaustion.... And that I could learn up to even 3, even partially maybe more like 5 or 7 techniques if not exhausted to extremes beforehand. Especially if repeated. If I was not dogged to exhaustion by running around in a circle and doing shrimps and push-ups and **** for 20 minutes before the class starts, teaches 1 move or two (sometimes without regard to the fact that I'm a beginner), and then jumps right into sparring.
Who's stupid fucking idea was this? I know damn sure it wasn't the Brazillians who came up with this. How do I know this? They run clubs, not schools. A club is open all day long, you come in, you get the training/instruction you need when there is an open trainer, and then if you don't want to work and train hard/stay after that then you get the **** out and may very well not be welcome back if you make a habbit of ducking work after your sparring or pad work or instructional session, etc. etc..
Look don't get me wrong, I know you gotta be in shape to spar. But to learn basic foundations I don't think being exhausted is a good idea. My boxing club was simple. You show the **** up. You get trained, where-ever you are at. You start to get tired at some point during training and the trainer recognizes this and hands you a fucking jump rope while he go reads the newspaper and occasionally yells at you to pick up the pace. If you don't like it, GTFO, no complaining. But aside from basic stretching, light warm-up routine which they provide for you when your welcomed to the gym, (cherry pickers, a few jumping jacks, shoulder stretches, etc.) you have your brain working at 100% and body stretched 100% while they set up your initial foot work, punching form, duck/parry/dodge work, combo work, etc., whatever your ready for for the day...
Trust me. I know you can't just apply principal even if you correctly understand it. You need to apply it against a resisting opponent, and if you can't run around in a circle and you can't shrimp and you can't flex a crab pose across the matt a few times and you can't do 20+ pushups once or twice a day, then you just get the concepts and don't have a prayer of applying it to another fighter. i get that. Why though, do I have to pay $200+ at nearly every BJJ school in the US to LEARN basics, only after I am exhausted instead of before I am exhausted?
I suspect it's to stretch out the time it takes to learn BJJ and increase fee collection but ****, I'm a skeptic and you bastards at Bullshido helped partially to make me that way (thanks for that btw) You please correct anything and everything I'm wrong about but I smell a Nation Wide flaw, or perhaps scam, in the arrangement here......
At the very least, I know I am better off finding a sparring partner or willing girlfriend to figure out the moves and positions on first, and then start wasting my money to get my dogging and then some matt work sparring in and test that ****.
You might be different. But I didn't learn computer programming directly after running laps, and I learned that **** pretty quickly, I taught myself and I ain't half bad at it.... cheers. (just an example, and that's with respect to the mental side that is required for understanding and contemplating and retaining juJitsu)
Did I just hit bad luck? or am I correct in assuming that my 3 school, multi-state experience is pretty uniform in the US at least? If it is, I suspect it's good style, and even good instruction, but a poor approach to teaching. Just a thought, cheers.
Last edited by Jettatore; 3/19/2013 1:41pm at .
Posted On:3/19/2013 1:41pm
How many classes have you been to?
I'm a noob to BJJ as well, we do all that warm up stuff, i'm 42 and it does not leave me incapable of learning. Are you sure your in the shape you say you are?
Got a link to the school?
pro nonsense self defense
Posted On:3/19/2013 1:54pm
Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs
I didn't learn computer programming directly after running laps, and I learned that **** pretty quickly, I taught myself and I ain't half bad at it.... cheers. (just an example, and that's with respect to the mental side that is required for understanding and contemplating and retaining juJitsu)
The process of learning martial arts is different than a discipline like computer programming, though.
My grandfather's high ball glass
Posted On:3/19/2013 2:27pm
Style: BJJ, wrestling
The reason that warm ups are typically done first in BJJ is that instructors believe it helps remove the strength variable from the learning curve. This is believed to be especially true for stronger students.
You can't cheat technique by using strength if you're too exhausted to utilize it.
That's the prevailing attitude anyway.
You know if you go to class on a regular basis, those warm ups will become easy enough that you will no longer be so exhausted, right?
Personal differences: I went to places that emphasized conditioning-to-near-exhaustion before anything technical was taught.
Since I never went to a place where this wasn't the practice, I can't compare: perhaps someone might clarify whether or not techniques learned under the stress of a near-exhausted state are better-retained than those learned under other regimes.
Also, it may be that being able to work effectively while gassed/sore/whatever might give you an advantage over someone who does not have the same degree of conditioning. Just a thought.
Posted On:3/19/2013 2:34pm
Your brain doesn't need a warmup before working. It works all the time, and its a blob of jelly so its not like there's something you could pull or strain. Your body, however, is like an old car and needs some warmup to avoid injury and prepare oneself for rigorous grappling. You wouldn't be the first person to abandon warmups as useless pain-time to later go back to them after injury(/ies).
Your jui-jitsu isn't just an academic study, nor is it just going to the gym to work on your body. Its both, at the same time, and I think this is something that should be celebrated, not avoided. Its the ability to apply leverage and torque at the right place and time, and your body and mind are equally important there.
I get the feeling that a big part of the difficulty in warmups is your smoking habit. I know you've got lots of parentheses telling us that you're in great shape in spite of it, but know that you probably are working harder than others and are getting more exhausted. If it were my class, I wouldn't change everything to fit the pace of the guy that smokes.
A warmup shouldn't be totally exhausting, and you are correct about that. But is it possible that is isn't, unless you smoke a pack and a half a day? You've tried three unrelated academies in different states, and they all seem to be too difficult during the warmup. Well, the constant in that is you.
Last edited by Permalost; 3/19/2013 2:38pm at .
Posted On:3/19/2013 2:41pm
Style: Muay Thai
do you make posts where you arent a whiny bitch or is this just par for the course?
One of the dudes from our forum hit a war veteran with his car and killed him :/
so the japs got him in the end?
Posted On:3/19/2013 2:45pm
foundational skills are not best learned while in a state of utter physical and hence mental exhaustion.... And that I could learn up to even 3, even partially maybe more like 5 or 7 techniques if not exhausted to extremes beforehand. Especially if repeated. If I was not dogged to exhaustion by running around in a circle and doing shrimps and push-ups and **** for 20 minutes before the class starts, teaches 1 move or two (sometimes without regard to the fact that I'm a beginner), and then jumps right into sparring.
Sounds like kempo would be right up your alley.
Posted On:3/19/2013 2:55pm
Well to be 100% honest Resonance, the worst offender of the bunch of the last BJJ school I was at before I moved to Asia recently. That school is located in New Jersey and it's Carvalho or something of the sort. I got my arm fractured their the second month I was there (not funny enough the other newb who did it to me had his arm in a sling just 2 weeks before if that tells you anything about the safety precautions of these folks...) **** those stupid assholes. The teachers know jujitsu that much I can see and confirm, but my experience was fucked and overpriced. Sorry to vent on you guys but I need it out of me and I do genuinely want to learn grappling and I am genuinely accepting and interested in putting in hard work, just don't like being dogged or fucked with right out the gate.
The reason I selectively remembered all 3 schools I went to was because they all did that to some degree but to be perfectly honest now that you have called me on it, it was that last one above that really did it every time, to the extremes and made me think to post.
Also, I don't feel bad in hindsight about listing the other school, cuz they are the ones that tried to BS me into a 1 year contract I had no idea I was signing (thank you mastercard for setting them straight) and started off my first, second and third class in the middle of advanced BJJ positioning lessons and didn't bother for **** to teach me basics even though I was a newb guy in the spot. not at all did they try, not even close.
That school was in California/in or around the Long Beach area and rhymes with hazillion hop team to give you a hint (I know it's a big name, and I'm sure if you pay the $4,000-$7,000 tuition it would take to show up for 2-3 years you'd know jujitsu basics quite well, don't get me wrong, but seriously, **** that bullshit)... Not saying any names though (you fucking dickhea*cough, cough* excuse me, i have the flu)
I'm bent on learning MT/kickboxing while I'm here in Asia instead, -will pick up BJJ sparring later (wanting/wanted to learn that stuff for years now) and try to first find someone to figure out the basic positions/locks etc. from Gracie and Bas Rutten Instructional tapes, and after that, I'll go find a reputable BJJ school and spar, and it won't matter if they train me in basics or skip it like the one school, or dog me to exhaustion first then only teach 1 move like the other school, they can just fix my mess pile up and I'll deal with the fitness **** in advance.
Resonance, it's a fair concern. I'm not in superb shape like I was when I was a kid (I played baseball, basketball, football and boxing as well as street hockey, skating, biking and snowboarding) but I'm an adult, out of shape former athelete for what it's worth. I was in better shape at 14-16 than probably at least the top 75% of US kids in my peer group if not way better (i'm being conservative) I can currently run 2+ miles at a reasonable pace, do 30+ pushups in one clip (full form pushups, not ass up in the air malformed garbage) and I can knock the **** out of a heavy bag or a speed bag. I can't jump rope hard for 30+ minutes like I used to, but if I'm spent and done many times over at the same $200+ paid for class you'd think they would adjust or make some exception or provide an account freeze and advice to come back when I don't suck. None of this was the case, they just said **** it, lets kill him and then try to teach him ****, who cares what he gets out of it.
Here's the guy who teaches the major dogging class by the way, only found this **** after I paid for 2 months, hurt my arm, etc., etc.
does the man know judo/jujitsu? yeah he really really really does, and he knows it well. very well, can't take that from him, I saw and felt it first hand, he's excellent. BUT. he didn't teach 95% of the classes, he left that up to others, as he opened yet another school instead, catering to 3+ schools. Did the other teachers know judo and jujitsu. Sure as **** they did, no argument there either.... Did they teach mean a fucking thing. NO, no they did not, I went for 2 months and didn't learn effectively while I was there and it cost well over $400.. No instead, I got a temporarily busted up arm and agitation for my fee as I was informed Friday classes were being cancelled and not being rescheduled/replaced but that I could instead drive to the dump of a city 2 hours over during rush hour and jump into that class for free......
Anyways, that's me solving for what I think is a crappy style of US version BJJ teaching from my experience. Learn some basics on my own first, then give it a new start is the current plan, I'm just venting and a bit drunk.... But again, my sample size is 3 and does not include when I went and visited Renzo Gracie's class in Manhattan (That actually looked great but I realistically couldn't afford the tuition at the time on my college budget :( -I don't remember getting any bad impressions at all from there, but I didn't have the scratch at that age.
Is my experience just rare? Or just bum luck? I'll figure it out/adapt as I must, I want to seriously learn this art soon.
Posted On:3/19/2013 3:00pm
Originally Posted by Vieux Normand
If it were my class, I wouldn't change everything to fit the pace of the guy that smokes.
No argument there. For the record i was quit for 2 years when i entered that school. (smoked for many many before that though). I picked up smoking again last year, and I'm in better shape now than when I was at that school (no fault of theirs, I just exercise all the time now and golf a lot and walk around the city instead of driving in the US so I'm just in better shape now vs. then, more active) BUT. Your point is solid. That said, I wasn't the only guy exhausted, and the other folks weren't smokers....
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