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  1. Cuddles is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/10/2013 9:18pm


     Style: jailbait

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Questions concerning leg locks

    Curious: Why are heelhooks so feared? It seems more so than a kneebar or other leg lock.

    Leg locks are scary because they're hard to heal from right? Doesn't that also happen during an armlock though? Or just not as easily?

    I don't even know if I'm allowed to ask here as this is the "advanced" grappling forum.
  2. jnp is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/11/2013 3:36am

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: BJJ, wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Excised from: http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=120088

    Here is a rough guideline to follow when deciding where to post in the grappling technique forums. Basic questions like yours above, along with, "How do I do this technique?" belong in the Basic Technique forum. The Advanced Grappling forum is for members who have questions asking how to refine, troubleshoot or improve techniques that they can already perform.

    The stickie written for the AdGrap forum goes into more detail. I advise you to read the stickies at the top of each forum. They serve as posting guidelines for the forums they are found in.

    Here is a link to the AdGrap stickie: http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=76402
  3. judojeff is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/11/2013 7:22am


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Cuddles View Post
    Curious: Why are heelhooks so feared? It seems more so than a kneebar or other leg lock.

    Leg locks are scary because they're hard to heal from right? Doesn't that also happen during an armlock though? Or just not as easily?

    I don't even know if I'm allowed to ask here as this is the "advanced" grappling forum.
    Heel hooks are discouraged because you feel pain after damage has been done, the point of submission is when you feel tension in your knee joint. This is different from an achillies lock or toe hold where you (or at least I) feel pain before any real injury has occured.

    That combined with a very long rehab time for knee injuries is why they are either highly discouraged or banned out right. Example being my judo school where on fridays we use and drill leg submissions, while we drill the heel hook so that we know where the point of submission is we do not allow it in rolling.
  4. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/11/2013 7:39am

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    Quote Originally Posted by judojeff View Post
    Heel hooks are discouraged because you feel pain after damage has been done, the point of submission is when you feel tension in your knee joint. This is different from an achillies lock or toe hold where you (or at least I) feel pain before any real injury has occured.

    That combined with a very long rehab time for knee injuries is why they are either highly discouraged or banned out right. Example being my judo school where on fridays we use and drill leg submissions, while we drill the heel hook so that we know where the point of submission is we do not allow it in rolling.
    Unfortunately I would have to say you were right but also very wrong. Most people don't know how to throw on a heel hook. It's a similar situation with a Kimura/Lower key lock/Ude Garami: Is it a shoulder lock or an arm lock? Technically it's one or the other or both depending on your understanding of the leverage.

    A heel hook is similar. I can dislocate the ankle or I can pressure the knee. Most people who learn this maneuver do truly don't understand the leverage. They end up twisting the knee instead of attacking the ankle. Then we go into several variations of inside and outside heel hook (inverted heel hook for for you rebels). One will stress the ACL while the other with stress the MCL and Meniscus.

    Then you have the various versions of these locks which come in the form of obnoxious toe holds, alternate grips, and hidden pressure. So heel hooks are outlawed because of the detestation to the leg and the universal ignorance due to that fear.
  5. judojeff is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/11/2013 12:25pm


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Omega you are correct of course. I suppose I should have mentioned that proper knee control allows for the heel hook to attack the ankle (one of the things my teacher mentions, maybe I should listen more hahaha).

    Thanks for the education.
  6. Mr.Miyagi is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/25/2013 10:27pm


     Style: BJJ/Zumba

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Supreme View Post
    Unfortunately I would have to say you were right but also very wrong. Most people don't know how to throw on a heel hook. It's a similar situation with a Kimura/Lower key lock/Ude Garami: Is it a shoulder lock or an arm lock? Technically it's one or the other or both depending on your understanding of the leverage.

    A heel hook is similar. I can dislocate the ankle or I can pressure the knee. Most people who learn this maneuver do truly don't understand the leverage. They end up twisting the knee instead of attacking the ankle. Then we go into several variations of inside and outside heel hook (inverted heel hook for for you rebels). One will stress the ACL while the other with stress the MCL and Meniscus.

    Then you have the various versions of these locks which come in the form of obnoxious toe holds, alternate grips, and hidden pressure. So heel hooks are outlawed because of the detestation to the leg and the universal ignorance due to that fear.
    Good breakdown, Omega.

    One thing I'm a bit confused about is when I've heard about the meniscus stress/pressure on heelhooks, how does this actually occur?

    I know meniscus tears happen from shearing force when weight/pressure is upon the limb like turning quickly in basketball or field sport and for whatever reason the lower leg stays still and the shear happens on the cartilidge. How does this type of force get generated in the heelhook? Or is it a different type of stress? I know Gokor mentions it every time he does a heelhook in his series, but I thought he was meaning the MCL. And then I've read a few things online about it, but still couldn't conceptualise how it occurs in actuality?

    I have a partial tear to my medial meniscus in my left knee, not large enough as yet for operation and doesn't lock out or hurt most of the time (crosses balls). Don't really know when it happened in training, but think it was off some drills with whitebelts passing and they yanked on a foot/leg while I was turning out and think if I can understand how the heelhook attacks the meniscus it might help me understand how the damage occured to me outside of the pressure scenario while standing and an actual submission and avoid it as much as possible...
    Daniel: I don't know if I know enough karate.

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    Daniel: You sure know how to make a guy feel confident.

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  7. Krijgsman is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/26/2013 3:12pm


     Style: Judo noob, injured guy.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I could be wrong, but if a heel hook is actually attacking the heel, it primarily puts leverage/pressure on the heel and ankle and primarily torques around that joint.

    If the heel hook is attacking the knee/shin, it puts leverage on the tibia/fibula and twists, which also twists the knee on a plane in which it was never ever meant to move. This is why that type of heel hook usually breaks the shinbones or tears things in the knee (or both) depending on what gives first.

    If you watch the episode of "rolled up" on youtube with Sambo Steve, he goes over leg locks in a really informative way and examines the leverages etc.
  8. dgold44 is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/29/2013 7:07pm


     Style: Krav Maga/ Muay thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    With upper body locks like Arms and shoulders you can usually feel the pain then have plenty of time to tap.

    Leg locks you have far less nerves and by the time you tap , the damage is already there if done too hard.

    Heel hooks and Toe holds can destroy your knee and ankle.
    Really would never allow anybody to try a heel hook on me
  9. CoffeeFan is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/30/2013 12:09am

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     Style: SAMBO/BJJ/Judo and others

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Miyagi View Post
    Good breakdown, Omega.

    One thing I'm a bit confused about is when I've heard about the meniscus stress/pressure on heelhooks, how does this actually occur?
    Quote Originally Posted by Krijgsman View Post
    I could be wrong, but if a heel hook is actually attacking the heel, it primarily puts leverage/pressure on the heel and ankle and primarily torques around that joint.

    If the heel hook is attacking the knee/shin, it puts leverage on the tibia/fibula and twists, which also twists the knee on a plane in which it was never ever meant to move. This is why that type of heel hook usually breaks the shinbones or tears things in the knee (or both) depending on what gives first.

    If you watch the episode of "rolled up" on youtube with Sambo Steve, he goes over leg locks in a really informative way and examines the leverages etc.
    You pretty much summed it up. You are either rotating the knee laterally or medially (outside or inside) while the knee is flexed (bent). This causes the tibia (shin bone) to go beyond it's normal range of motion and the ligature of the knee joint to get overstretched and/or tear. Like previously stated, you can also adjust the leverage to rotate the ankle as opposed to the knee.

    It really is complex if you want to break down the whole thing. Better to have it done to you and feel the pressure being applied and practice proper body mechanics.

    http://wings.buffalo.edu/eng/mae/cou...ecture%205.pdf
  10. Mr.Miyagi is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/30/2013 9:49pm


     Style: BJJ/Zumba

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CoffeeFan View Post
    You pretty much summed it up. You are either rotating the knee laterally or medially (outside or inside) while the knee is flexed (bent). This causes the tibia (shin bone) to go beyond it's normal range of motion and the ligature of the knee joint to get overstretched and/or tear. Like previously stated, you can also adjust the leverage to rotate the ankle as opposed to the knee.

    It really is complex if you want to break down the whole thing. Better to have it done to you and feel the pressure being applied and practice proper body mechanics.

    http://wings.buffalo.edu/eng/mae/cou...ecture%205.pdf
    Sweet, thanks for the link.

    Mainly I think I just had issue with the semantics of 'force' as I'm thinking direct force from top to bottom under a load, and while I understand shearing force from rotational torsion I had thought it not enough by itself to cause damage to the meniscus /cartilage itself without also a top to bottom force as well:

    E.G. in the Toe hold or heel hook if we are just lying stationary.

    But after taking a look through those slides and thinking about it more, my original thoughts were too simple and didn't take in enough of the complexity of balancing forces through the knee even without a standing directional top down force.

    Thanks! Now it seems I just have to be aware of EVERYWHERE, haha.
    Daniel: I don't know if I know enough karate.

    Miyagi: Feeling correct.

    Daniel: You sure know how to make a guy feel confident.

    Miyagi: You trust the quality of what you know, not quantity.
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