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  1. ChuckWepner is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/09/2013 5:08pm


     

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by itwasntme View Post
    I went ahead and deleted that bit out of my rebuttal. I'm sure after having time to review your post, you are thanking me right now.

    You won't get so lucky twice. I mean, come on... Wikipedia??? Hold on a few minutes and you can quote the part I'm about to add about Hitler being half Japanese, and WW2 started over Stalin breaking the treaty with Hitler by fucking his wife.

    Back to the topic at hand.

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-637368.html

    I added the last part since it seems I forced myself into a debate on morality as well. Hitler clearly wanted this to be made available to German citizens at a cheap rate.

    Before you mention that only the privileged received their cars, I would just like to point out how that was the obvious conclusion when the cars were in limited numbers. The privileged had likely put in more money than the rest, and in the highly unlikely circumstance that this was not the case, that still does not refute the fact that he tried.
    When you praise a guy for caring for someone's welfare, it, you are in moral territory.

    "The privileged" in Nazi Germany probably doesn't refer to wealthy people (most of whom would have had (swankier) cars already, and who would have been unlikely to sign up for a layaway plan to buy a discount car), it very likely refers to party / government officials, high-ranking SS men, etc. And the passage you cited doesn't say "the more privileged among those who were making payments." Do you have evidence that *any* of the subscribers got cars? Hitler was an absolute dictator for much of his time in office. If he had "tried," all he had to do was order the 630 cars to go to average citizens. He didn't.

    If you spend any time studying conditions within Germany (or in any of the occupied territories) under Hitler, you will find that this was typical. Shortages and hardships for most people (if they were lucky enough not to face much worse); privileges and spoils for the Party elite, those in favored military units, and anyone who could hold the fear of official displeasure over businesses, etc.

    By the way, have you reflected at all on the point I mentioned that it wasn't the actual German people whose interests Hitler wanted to promote, but rather an idealized pan-Germanic Race, purified and restored to his deluded ideal? This matters quite a bit, because there are lots of things, like murdering millions of German citizens as the extreme example, or decimating the German scientific community to rid it of those who weren't "the right kind" of Germans, etc., that Hitler did that weren't in the interest of Germany's actual citizens but that promoted the racial and ideological purity of the German "Volk."

    So, you might consider whether the things that you think of as attempts to help the actual German people because he cared about them were really efforts to bring about the Thousand Year Reign of a not-yet-fully-existing race of people into whom he thought he was destined to reshape existing elements within the population of Central and Northern Europe.

    Because that seems a bit less commendable, but it also fits a lot better with what Hitler actually did and wrote.
  2. W. Rabbit is offline
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    You know me...the snakebite hiss, the Devil's Grip, the Iron Fist

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    Posted On:
    3/09/2013 5:31pm

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    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The tag for "Pedantic Douchebag" also does not exist.

    If it did, there could be only one.

    You know...we could be talking about ninjers and you're not. There's something wrong here and I really think it's you idiots going on about Hitler and not the Booj or at least the Jersey Shore.
    Last edited by W. Rabbit; 3/09/2013 5:35pm at .
  3. itwasntme is online now
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    Posted On:
    3/09/2013 5:42pm

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    -1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ChuckWepner View Post
    When you praise a guy for caring for someone's welfare, it, you are in moral territory.
    No arguments there, it just wasn't my intention to debate Hitler's morality in general, only on specific topics.

    "The privileged" in Nazi Germany probably doesn't refer to wealthy people (most of whom would have had (swankier) cars already, and who would have been unlikely to sign up for a layaway plan to buy a discount car), it very likely refers to party / government officials, high-ranking SS men, etc. And the passage you cited doesn't say "the more privileged among those who were making payments." Do you have evidence that *any* of the subscribers got cars? Hitler was an absolute dictator for much of his time in office. If he had "tried," all he had to do was order the 630 cars to go to average citizens. He didn't.
    To start, no, I have no evidence to support that the more privileged who were making payments received the cars. I'm merely offering a plausible solution.

    However, if the more privileged likely already had swankier cars and were therefore, in your opinion, lacking the desire to pay into this layaway plan, how do you support your assertion that these cars likely went to the likes of political figures and high-ranking SS members, surely among the more privileged themselves?

    Edit:
    http://www.holocaust-history.org/que...lkswagen.shtml
    One of the better sources for the history of Volkswagen and its role in World War II, including the use of slave labor, can be found in:

    Beyond Expectation: "The Volkswagen Story" K.B. Hopfinger. Third Edition c. 1956, G.T. Foulis & Co., Ltd. (London)

    from which most of my comments (below) have been taken. You might try to get your university library to obtain a copy on interlibrary loan.

    Although flaunted as the "People's Car" by the Nazis, and sold to the general public before the war on a subscription basis, very few people actually ever received the vehicle.

    If you spend any time studying conditions within Germany (or in any of the occupied territories) under Hitler, you will find that this was typical. Shortages and hardships for most people (if they were lucky enough not to face much worse); privileges and spoils for the Party elite, those in favored military units, and anyone who could hold the fear of official displeasure over businesses, etc.
    See first quote block.

    By the way, have you reflected at all on the point I mentioned that it wasn't the actual German people whose interests Hitler wanted to promote, but rather an idealized pan-Germanic Race, purified and restored to his deluded ideal? This matters quite a bit, because there are lots of things, like murdering millions of German citizens as the extreme example, or decimating the German scientific community to rid it of those who weren't "the right kind" of Germans, etc., that Hitler did that weren't in the interest of Germany's actual citizens but that promoted the racial and ideological purity of the German "Volk."
    I have, but this is the position I decided to (try to) defend.

    So, are you saying that because he wanted to help a select group of people, that this somehow negates the fact that he wanted to do some good?

    Keep in mind, I'm not arguing that Hitler was inherently good, morally, only that some of his actions could be considered so.

    So, you might consider whether the things that you think of as attempts to help the actual German people because he cared about them were really efforts to bring about the Thousand Year Reign of a not-yet-fully-existing race of people into whom he thought he was destined to reshape existing elements within the population of Central and Northern Europe.

    Because that seems a bit less commendable, but it also fits a lot better with what Hitler actually did and wrote.
    Something tells me that changing my stance to "Hitler tried to help his not-yet-created perfect race, doing some good in the process" would not appease anybody.
    Last edited by itwasntme; 3/09/2013 5:56pm at .
  4. catfishaggie is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/09/2013 8:05pm


     Style: BJJ

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It is so sad. You try so hard to appear intelligent but end up looking like a fool. How does IIF nuts taste? I ask because you try so hard to emulate his style.
  5. ChenPengFi is online now
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    Posted On:
    3/09/2013 8:40pm

    Join us... or die
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    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You've resorted to lying Chuckie boy.

    You keep typing **** you cannot support, and you keep trying to build strawmen and throw red herrings.

    Oh by the way, please continue to tell itwasn'tme what he meant.
    That's fucking icing on the cake.

    Itwasn'tme > C. Wepner.

    Hahahahahahaaaa!!!!
  6. Tranquil Suit is online now
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    Posted On:
    3/09/2013 11:06pm

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    4
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mister View Post
    Holy **** you guys.

    Hitler is dead.
    Yes, but thanks to his highways, his memory will live on forever.

    (tab) Forum > Forum Actions > General Settings > in Thread Display Options > Number of Posts to Show Per Page: 40
  7. Mister is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/10/2013 12:45am


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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquil Suit View Post
    Yes, but thanks to his highways, his memory will live on forever.
    Yeah I don't think it's the highways.

    Maybe if we make it high ways instead...
  8. itwasntme is online now
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    Posted On:
    3/10/2013 2:02am

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    0
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by catfishaggie View Post
    How does IIF nuts taste?
    I don't know. It's called sharing, ************. Try it.
  9. Moenstah is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/10/2013 3:18am


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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    The tag for "Pedantic Douchebag" also does not exist.

    If it did, there could be only one.
    Why not settle for the 'dumbass' tag like Kikkoman has/had?
  10. bobyclumsyninja is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/10/2013 5:30am

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    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by itwasntme View Post
    To start, no, I have no evidence to support that the more privileged who were making payments received the cars. I'm merely offering a plausible solution.
    Solution would be the wrong term. It's in the past, so it's a matter of history, not arbitration. You want to haggle what's already passed, instead of READING ABOUT HISTORY, so you'll then KNOW what's passed.
    So, are you saying that because he wanted to help a select group of people, that this somehow negates the fact that he wanted to do some good?
    Well, do you love the KKK? They want(ed) to do some "good" for a select group of people, at others' expense. How about the mafia? They want to help a few people (mobsters) at others expense.

    By your logic, extortion rackets, slavery, murder-for-hire, racism, bigotry, genocide can all be called "some good" as they are intended to benefit somebody.
    Keep in mind, I'm not arguing that Hitler was inherently good, morally, only that some of his actions could be considered so.
    Could be considered so, by a naive simpleton or someone with an agenda.

    Something tells me that changing my stance to "Hitler tried to help his not-yet-created perfect race, doing some good in the process" would not appease anybody.
    Correct. This is because it's a disingenuous rehash of your initial stance, and not much else.

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