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  1. ChuckWepner is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/06/2013 8:45pm


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by itwasntme View Post
    I'm saying he didn't order that exact gameplan, and furthermore didn't make them take the peoples' money.
    As exciting as the itwasntme vs. the world debate on Hitler is, it seems to have lost any focus it ever had. The initial issue was something like, Did Hitler do some things for the welfare of the German people that weren't really motivated by his own selfish purposes?

    In general, the terms of this argument as it is set up are pretty stupid, if you all will pardon my saying so. Hitler had a vision of an idealized, purified German people, and he thought that anything he did to bring the actual German people (including those who lived outside of Germany's borders) more into line with that ideal was "for their good" even if it meant sterilizing, imprisoning, and murdering huge numbers of them. He also believed that they needed, and were entitled to, vast quantities of territory, and that as the superior race, they were entitled to enslave, move, or murder any other people currently occupying that territory. And they were entitled to pursue these goals by whatever military means were available, against military or civilian targets.

    And, of course, Hitler believed that there were several kinds of people whose proximity contaminated the German people, and that therefore, those people should be subjected to internment, slavery, and genocide. In Hitler's perverse view, there was no distinction between what was best for the actual German people and what was best for the garbage-science and distorted-mythology based imaginary ideal people he was transforming them into, and since he was the one leader with this true vision, there was no distinction between what preserved and extended his power and what was best for the Aryan race and what was best for the German people.

    So, the idea that there are some things that Hitler did to promote the well-being of Erma and Willi Schmidt and their little ones that weren't also part and parcel of promoting his Nazi vision assumes a kind of compartmentalization that I doubt very much was going on.

    This is all sort of reminiscent of the old saw about Mussolini that at least he made the trains run on time. (Although Mussolini didn't actually do that.) But before we get back to arguing about whether Grandma Schicklgruber's bastard's little excrescence had his good points, can we clear up what exactly we are arguing about?

    That is, what claim is it that itwasntme is still willing to defend that we are trying to debate?
  2. ChuckWepner is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/06/2013 9:14pm


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azatdawn View Post
    These are mostly facts, at least (just writing this to differentiate it from the crap itwasntme came up with). I'd still say some of it is up to debate, for example him being well thought of by his commanding officer. From what I had read before, his best quality had been that he was mostly unobtrusive and getting wounded. Much of the praise he later got from war comrades is considered to be dubious because they got rewarded for that by the NSDAP with money and operative offices.

    Also the "messenger duties being more to his liking" had certainly a lot to do with the fact that it was a lot safer. Just a finer point of this I wanted to mention.
    As to the point about messenger duties, I agree. That's why I put it that way. I also mentioned his hiding out in Bavaria for several years to avoid Austrian military service. He was not keen on fighting in the trenches, and does not seem to have been brave, though he did volunteer in Bavaria after being rejected in Austria.

    The reason I say his CO thought well of him is that he put him in for promotion twice and recommended him for decoration (besides a unit service medal for serving in the Bavarian infantry, and the medals related to his wounds, Hitler received the extremely common Iron Cross 2nd Class -- almost half of all German WWI soldiers received it -- and the less common Iron Cross 1st Class, awarded to about 2% of German soldiers in WWI), not because of the propaganda later bribed / coerced out of his fellow soldiers.
  3. Azatdawn is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/06/2013 9:37pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by ChuckWepner View Post

    The reason I say his CO thought well of him is that he put him in for promotion twice and recommended him for decoration (besides a unit service medal for serving in the Bavarian infantry, and the medals related to his wounds, Hitler received the extremely common Iron Cross 2nd Class -- almost half of all German WWI soldiers received it -- and the less common Iron Cross 1st Class, awarded to about 2% of German soldiers in WWI), not because of the propaganda later bribed / coerced out of his fellow soldiers.
    Yeah, true. I still have no idea why that was though, really. I guess it had something to do with his „Den Vorgesetzten achten, niemandem widersprechen, blindlings sich fügen“ ("Respect your superious, don't contradict anyone, obey blindly") mentality he had there.
  4. ChenPengFi is online now
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    Posted On:
    3/07/2013 1:13am

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    3
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChuckWepner View Post
    As exciting as the itwasntme vs. the world debate on Hitler is, it seems to have lost any focus it ever had. The initial issue was something like, Did Hitler do some things for the welfare of the German people that weren't really motivated by his own selfish purposes?
    Nope, it was:

    Quote Originally Posted by itwasntme View Post
    Hitler should be commended for a quite a few of his actions.
    Everything else came after that.
  5. ChuckWepner is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/07/2013 2:18am


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChenPengFi View Post
    Nope, it was:

    Everything else came after that.
    You are right that that is the initial sentence stating his position, and I can see why you would take that one sentence to be his thesis statement. But look at the next sentence after the one that you quoted: "For starters, he actually cared about the welfare of his people; a trait few leaders possess."

    So itwasntme's opener was:

    Quote Originally Posted by itwasntme
    Hitler should be commended for a quite a few of his actions. For starters, he actually cared about the welfare of his people; a trait few leaders possess.
    I realize that "for starters" should have signaled the beginning of the examples, but since there aren't any actions that Hitler took in the second sentence,it is doing something else. I think it is supposed to explain the first sentence -- that is, Hitler should be commended because he was motivated by his genuine caring for the welfare of Germany's citizens.

    Note that the claim isn't just that some of his actions had good results or that sometimes he happened to do the right thing, but that Hitler should be commended for these actions, which means that we are in the realm of motives and character.

    Also, this issue of whether Hitler was trying to do what was best for the German people out of concern for their welfare keeps coming up as each action is discussed. So, it seems to me that itwasntme was claiming a (non-existent) kind of concern on Hitler's part for his fellow citizens for their own sakes as essential to what commends Hitler's actions to us.
  6. ChenPengFi is online now
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    Posted On:
    3/07/2013 2:59am

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChuckWepner View Post
    You are right that that is the initial sentence stating his position, and I can see why you would take that one sentence to be his thesis statement. But look at the next sentence after the one that you quoted: "For starters, he actually cared about the welfare of his people; a trait few leaders possess."

    So itwasntme's opener was:



    I realize that "for starters" should have signaled the beginning of the examples, but since there aren't any actions that Hitler took in the second sentence,it is doing something else. I think it is supposed to explain the first sentence -- that is, Hitler should be commended because he was motivated by his genuine caring for the welfare of Germany's citizens.

    Note that the claim isn't just that some of his actions had good results or that sometimes he happened to do the right thing, but that Hitler should be commended for these actions, which means that we are in the realm of motives and character.

    Also,[b] this issue of whether Hitler was trying to do what was best for the German people out of concern for their welfare keeps coming up as each action is discussed. So, it seems to me that itwasntme was claiming a (non-existent) kind of concern on Hitler's part for his fellow citizens for their own sakes as essential to what commends Hitler's actions to us.
    You are addressing Azatdawn's argument then.
    Hitler should not be commended, despite the inaccurate points itwasn'tme raises to try to support his opinion.
    I think you are indulging in his idiocy.
  7. W. Rabbit is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/07/2013 3:31am

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    1
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    Fine I'll do it...thread on-track in 3..2..

    Jack's band, "Rogues on the Run", in nearby Belmar. That's him singing.



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  8. tgace is online now
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    Posted On:
    3/07/2013 3:59am


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    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hoban trying to sell his training;

    http://www.resgroupintl.com/

    to my profession;

    http://www.policeone.com/patrol-issu...-is-a-warrior/

    If using the term "Warrior" helps motivate some coppers to workout, shoot, study defensive tactics, etc I all for it. If taken too far though....we are here to police the population not to wage war.

    If the term is used in LE to foster a particulat mindset as in this:

    One Warrior's Creed

    If today is to be THE DAY, so be it.

    If you seek to do battle with me this day you will receive the best that I am capable of giving.

    It may not be enough, but it will be everything that I have to give and it will be impressive for I have constantly prepared myself for this day.

    I have trained, drilled and rehearsed my actions so that I might have the best chance of defeating you.

    I have kept myself in peak physical condition, schooled myself in the martial skills and have become proficient in the application of combat tactics.

    You may defeat me, but you will pay a severe price and will be lucky to escape with your life.

    You may kill me, but I am willing to die if necessary.

    I do not fear Death, for I have been close enough to it on enough occasions that it no longer concerns me.

    But I do fear the loss of my Honor and would rather die fighting than to have it said that I was without Courage.

    So I WILL FIGHT YOU, no matter how insurmountable it may seem, and to the death if need be, in order that it may never be said of me that I was not a Warrior.

    -Steven R. Watt, All Rights Reserved.
    I can see a utility in it. I'd rather try using the "Warrior" mindset than beg some scumbag not to kill me.

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6c3_1344431586

    ...but if warrior...warrior...warrior...is taken too far you can be taken into a LARP like state with the whole thing.
  9. tgace is online now
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    Posted On:
    3/07/2013 4:06am


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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hoban also is involved in the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program (MCMAP). His bio states he assisted in it's creation.

    http://www.livingvalues.com/bio.html

    Just how involved he was I don't know, but I have seen articles in various USMC publications showing him training Marines.
  10. bobyclumsyninja is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/07/2013 5:27am

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    Quote Originally Posted by itwasntme View Post
    Umm, Hitler should be commended for a quite a few of his actions. For starters, he actually cared about the welfare of his people; a trait few leaders possess. The guy mass produced (reliable) cars to be sold for low prices across Germany. He invented the fucking highway. He volunteered to be on the front lines, serving his country. Do I really need to keep going?
    You didn't get to Rome yet in high school? I say keep going....keep going to class, numbnuts.

    EDIT: Now I"ll read the rest of the thread *winces*

    Also, Jwilde/ItWasntMe, as someone who's been bitten in the ass in court by bullshido posts once (far milder ones), I feel I should share, that they can be brought up to define your (Hitler-loving)character ;)
    Last edited by bobyclumsyninja; 3/07/2013 5:41am at .
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