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  1. Diesel_tke is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/25/2013 9:34pm

    supporting member
     Style: stick,Taiji, mountainbike

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yeah, that's him. Here is another.

    http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=zcjmP...re%3Dendscreen
    Combatives training log.

    Gezere: paraphrase from Bas Rutten, Never escalate the level of violence in fight you are losing. :D

    Drum thread

    Pavel Tsatsouline: kettlebell workouts give you “cardio without the dishonour of aerobics”.
  2. Tetsumusha is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/25/2013 11:49pm


     Style: Karate, w/ a side of judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel_tke View Post
    Sounds like you need a heavier heavy bag. I've got a 110lb heavy bag. It gives plenty of resistance. Plus you can very the different angles and punches that you are using. I was under the impression that the purpose was actually to make the bones, muscles, and tendons denser and stronger.
    Oh, I'm not saying you shouldn't use a heavy bag--the makiwara and the heavy bag go hand-in-hand, in my opinion. The heavy bag does provide resistance, but because it is hanging it still doesn't provide the increasing resistance that the makiwara does, so you will eventually reach its limit in that regard simply because you will reach a point where you hit the bag hard enough that it doesn't resist you enough to continue building strength in your striking structure. The makiwara's spring action allows it to push back just as hard as you push to continue building that structure so that you are able to maintain it as you strike harder and harder. However, since the makiwara is a stationary, narrow, flat target you are not able to work movement or combinations at all, but the heavy bag is an excellent tool for those things. In other words, makiwara training means you can hit the bag more!

    Quote Originally Posted by Resonance10
    Duh re read your post, totally read it wrong. I see what you are saying. It does seem though that the hardening of the hands is the point for some practitioners. See Higaonna vids above.
    Haha, don't worry about it--I think most people do expect the "it hardens your knuckles and toughens your skin" explanation when it comes to makiwara training. I will say that it does seem to do those things over time, but that is really just a by-product that happens to be useful in that it means you can hit things (including the makiwara) more often without tearing up your knuckles. Building structure is what it's all about.

    The people who do it to toughen up their hands are the people who end up over-doing it and causing lasting damage to their hands. Higaonna Sensei is a bit of an oddity, because he actually uses and teaches makiwara use for the purpose I described, but it happens to have built up a great deal of callous for him anyway. I attribute that partially to being more dedicated with his makiwara training than most, and perhaps some genetic pre-disposition to callousing.
  3. whatever123 is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/26/2013 11:23am


     Style: KK TKD GJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tetsumusha View Post
    Higaonna Sensei is a bit of an oddity, because he actually uses and teaches makiwara use for the purpose I described, but it happens to have built up a great deal of callous for him anyway. I attribute that partially to being more dedicated with his makiwara training than most, and perhaps some genetic pre-disposition to callousing.
    I think it's because he does all the other hand strengthening exercises (the rock slamming & other) that he has the callouses not the makiwara alone.
  4. Diesel_tke is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/26/2013 11:26am

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     Style: stick,Taiji, mountainbike

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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever123 View Post
    I think it's because he does all the other hand strengthening exercises (the rock slamming & other) that he has the callouses not the makiwara alone.
    Yeah, he does a lot of other body hardening stuff also. Like hitting his arms and legs with sticks. Rolling his arms with one of those heavy rollers. Punching a brick wall.
    Combatives training log.

    Gezere: paraphrase from Bas Rutten, Never escalate the level of violence in fight you are losing. :D

    Drum thread

    Pavel Tsatsouline: kettlebell workouts give you “cardio without the dishonour of aerobics”.
  5. daishi is online now

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    Posted On:
    2/26/2013 11:40am


     Style: Aikido/JJJ/Judo/GoJu Ryu

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    I used to train in GoJu and Uechi Ryu. We did some of that stuff, got the nice knuckle deposit buildup but our teacher kind of just stopped having us do it. People were slicing that callous off throughout their daily lives, kind of negating the work for it, plus it was just not worth it anymore. We still did body hardening though.
  6. whatever123 is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/26/2013 3:16pm


     Style: KK TKD GJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by daishi View Post
    I used to train in GoJu and Uechi Ryu. We did some of that stuff, got the nice knuckle deposit buildup but our teacher kind of just stopped having us do it. People were slicing that callous off throughout their daily lives, kind of negating the work for it, plus it was just not worth it anymore. We still did body hardening though.
    I don't think that the callous itself is the source of strength, most likely it's the other stuff that increase the strength (better alignment during punches, hardened bones, etc...) but I have my doubts as that it might cause arthritis & if it is worth it at all.
  7. daishi is online now

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    Posted On:
    2/27/2013 6:58am


     Style: Aikido/JJJ/Judo/GoJu Ryu

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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever123 View Post
    I don't think that the callous itself is the source of strength, most likely it's the other stuff that increase the strength (better alignment during punches, hardened bones, etc...) but I have my doubts as that it might cause arthritis & if it is worth it at all.
    Basically thats the real reason. We would see these guys at seminars with jacked up wrists...giant, bear hands, but you could tell they weren't feeling great. It was a part-time dojo, only maybe five classes a week, so no real reason to go that far in our opinion. I mean, people could if they wanted, and most went through that stage, but after a few years they usually stopped.
  8. Tetsumusha is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/27/2013 8:09am


     Style: Karate, w/ a side of judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I really think that the claims of arthritis being caused by makiwara use are not accurate. I believe that if you already have arthritis, you certainly shouldn't be using the makiwara because your joints don't have the ability to absorb the shock properly, but you probably shouldn't be hitting a heavy bag without gloves if you have arthritis, either. Some people are genetically predisposed to get arthritis, and so they will likely get it whether they hit the makiwara or not. Anyone who overdoes their makiwara training--hitting too hard without working up to it, doing far too many repetitions, using an overly-resistant makiwara, or using a makiwara without enough padding--is going to damage their hands. A good example of this is Mas Oyama, the founder of Kyokushin, because he was known to overdo his makiwara training and by the time of his death he was mostly unable to write at all and said that he regretted it.

    On the other hand, I know quite a few people just within the two systems of karate I have trained in who hit the makiwara on a consistent basis and don't have any trouble. I know quite a few more than that if you count people I have corresponded with online but never met in person. Just like anything else, the makiwara is dangerous if used (or built) improperly, but used properly it is an effective tool.
  9. Vieux Normand is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/27/2013 1:48pm

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     Style: 血鷲

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yours truly has been using makiwara (or trees, if travelling and not near any dojo) since the 70's.

    Not arm-punches...the whole body-torsion, aim-through-the-target deal.

    No arthritis or other issues as a result.
  10. whatever123 is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/27/2013 2:19pm


     Style: KK TKD GJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well the issue is not that makiwara WILL cause arthritis, it's if makiwara MAY cause arthritis.

    I'm not saying that makiwara is bad it just that you should be careful training with it, I mean if someone like Oyama got arthritis (btw the 1st time I hear this story is in this thread) anyone can.

    BTW my earlier post was meant for all bone & soft tissue strengthening exercises (mainly hitting rocks & stuff) not makiwara only.

    Heavy bag , grip, hand & forearm training are my preferred methods, but I wouldn't mind to try makiwara in the future.
    Last edited by whatever123; 2/27/2013 2:20pm at . Reason: typo
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