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  1. OwlMatt is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/07/2013 8:48pm


     Style: aikido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew WA View Post
    I am just going to have to disagree with you on this. I don't need to explain things you already will reject no matter what because you have already made up your mind.
    Weak. Show me something that you call taekwondo that you also call realistic self-defense training and maybe you'll change my mind. All I said was that I have never seen such a thing.

    Yeah because Taekwondo in no way AT ALL teaches punches to the face or is allowed to be called Taekwondo when used in other sport fighting.
    Straw man. I never said any of those things.

    Like I said go look at the evidence by checking out Hee Il Cho and then tell me why none of his techniques are proven effective in any form of fighting or self defense.
    Effectiveness comes from training methods, not techniques. A taekwondo guy is doing most of the same kicks and punches as a Kyokushin guy: the Kyokushin guy isn't a better fighter because of the set of techniques he trains; he's a better fighter because of the manner in which he trains them.
    And then explain why he is in no way doing anything related to Taekwondo while he is wearing a dobak, black belt, is a Korean grandmaster of Taekwondo etc...
    Irrelevant. The fact that he is a taekwondo master or that he is in a dobok does not make everything he does taekwondo. I have played the guitar in a dobok; that doesn't mean playing the guitar is taekwondo.

    Also look up Master Kwon's full contact Taekwondo videos.
    I will. But before I do, tell me this: am I going to find something that is traditionally part of taekwondo training or am I going to find something that one guy came up with to try to make taekwondo more realistic? I suspect the latter, and that wouldn't help your case much.
  2. OwlMatt is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/07/2013 9:43pm


     Style: aikido

    -1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I am looking at Hee Il Cho on YouTube now; I see some good taekwondo and a lot of breaking stuff but nothing I would describe as realistic self-defense. There's a lot of stuff to sift through, though -- did you have something specific in mind?

    As for Master Kwon, what he teaches looks like good taekwondo and a lot of fun, but I definitely don't see anything that is "full-contact". Here is the sparring at his club:



    This is obviously not full-contact, and I think most Bullshido members will agree that that the prevalence of high, acrobatic kicks in here is very unrealistic for self-defense.
  3. Andrew WA is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/07/2013 9:47pm


     Style: Taekwondo/Eskrima

    -1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Weak. Show me something that you call taekwondo that you also call realistic self-defense training and maybe you'll change my mind. All I said was that I have never seen such a thing.
    I said go look at Heel In Cho on youtube and see Taekwondo that is serious fighting. Please go view some videos about him.


    Straw man. I never said any of those things.
    It is not a straw man. You said you think kickboxing is not taekwondo, or somehow invalidates it as being Taekwondo. I disagree. Now if you did not mean that Kickboxing cannot be Taekwondo then explain what you meant. Taekwondo has face punches, knees, elbows etc that are used for self defense and are inside the poomsae we practice. Taking the techniques we practice (which are meant to be able to be used in a situation) and sparring with them is much like kickboxing.

    Effectiveness comes from training methods, not techniques. A taekwondo guy is doing most of the same kicks and punches as a Kyokushin guy: the Kyokushin guy isn't a better fighter because of the set of techniques he trains; he's a better fighter because of the manner in which he trains them.
    There are some taining methods kyokushin guys could benefit from that Taekwondo people do like practicing speed kicks in order to work out fast twitch muscle fibers to explode to their max. Also working on more head kicks could help them.
    Taekwondo could take training ideas such as leg kicks, leg checks and use them more often and drill them. Like you said both these styles have much of the same techniques. If a Taekwondo guy decides to train in effective ways does this invalidate it as being Taekwondo? And are you making the claim that absolutely NO Taekwondo people in the entire world or in history ever trained effectively? If so what evidence do you suggest?

    Irrelevant. The fact that he is a taekwondo master or that he is in a dobok does not make everything he does taekwondo. I have played the guitar in a dobok; that doesn't mean playing the guitar is taekwondo.
    I did not mean that simply wearing a dobak makes it Taekwondo. Nice try buddy. But I was stating the fact he is a real Taekwondo master and it is evident in videos of him and photos that he in in fact Taekwondo. The dobak is simply evidence to suggest he actually is Taekwondo. I would like for you to tell me which Taekwondo technques he does that are ineffective. I suppose you are going to claim any technique he does that is effective and serious fighting is not taekwondo and he borrowed it from somewhere else?



    I will. But before I do, tell me this: am I going to find something that is traditionally part of taekwondo training or am I going to find something that one guy came up with to try to make taekwondo more realistic? I suspect the latter, and that wouldn't help your case much.
    What I assume is going to happen is you will see a guy doing actual Taekwondo techniques that are found inside of Taekwondo and reject them and claim they are not taekwondo simply because you have an ignorant bias and just for some reason do not like Taekwondo and refuse to believe common sense. A round kick is a round kick, but you seem to want to say a round kick that does not work = Taekwondo, but any round kick that looks like it worked or was showne ffective is not Taekwondo. Even if its the same technique. Just stupid.

    With all the recent spin kick knockouts in the UFC one would assume more people would be open minded about taekwondo as a fighting system, but yet we still have people like you. Amazing. I see you do aikido, is that any better?
  4. Andrew WA is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/07/2013 9:50pm


     Style: Taekwondo/Eskrima

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by OwlMatt View Post
    I am looking at Hee Il Cho on YouTube now; I see some good taekwondo and a lot of breaking stuff but nothing I would describe as realistic self-defense. There's a lot of stuff to sift through, though -- did you have something specific in mind?

    As for Master Kwon, what he teaches looks like good taekwondo and a lot of fun, but I definitely don't see anything that is "full-contact". Here is the sparring at his club:



    This is obviously not full-contact, and I think most Bullshido members will agree that that the prevalence of high, acrobatic kicks in here is very unrealistic for self-defense.
    Sorry dude but he calls his gym Master Kwon's Full Contact Taekwondo, and this is sparring practice. he is teaching a student about sparring. In no way does this video state "Hey we are practicing FULL CONTACT RIGHT THIS SECOND AND HITTING EACH OTHER FULL ON CONTACT IN THIS VIDEO." No you are confusing the same of his dojang with watching a full contact sparring session. This is simply him teaching. I suppose you think his teaching sucks and he probably has no basis in realistic self defense techniques?
    What does one have to do in order to be prcticing THE REAL serious fighting and self defense and not all the fake stuff you claim Taekwondo teaches?

    Quote Originally Posted by OwlMatt View Post
    I am looking at Hee Il Cho on YouTube now; I see some good taekwondo and a lot of breaking stuff but nothing I would describe as realistic self-defense. There's a lot of stuff to sift through, though -- did you have something specific in mind?
    Show me the video you are viewing that shows "nothing [you] would describe as realistic self-defense."
  5. OwlMatt is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/07/2013 10:37pm


     Style: aikido

    -1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew WA View Post
    It is not a straw man. You said you think kickboxing is not taekwondo, or somehow invalidates it as being Taekwondo. I disagree.
    I never said that. Please re-read my post.
    Now if you did not mean that Kickboxing cannot be Taekwondo then explain what you meant.
    I meant what I said. Read it for yourself; the words are pretty clear.
    Taekwondo has face punches, knees, elbows etc that are used for self defense and are inside the poomsae we practice. Taking the techniques we practice (which are meant to be able to be used in a situation) and sparring with them is much like kickboxing.
    Well, as I said before, I am unfamiliar with such a thing in taekwondo. Is this sparring done for points in pads like Olympic sparring, or some other way?
    There are some taining methods kyokushin guys could benefit from that Taekwondo people do like practicing speed kicks in order to work out fast twitch muscle fibers to explode to their max. Also working on more head kicks could help them.
    Yeah, I'm pretty sure they already do that.
    Taekwondo could take training ideas such as leg kicks, leg checks and use them more often and drill them. Like you said both these styles have much of the same techniques.
    You use a very important word here: could. Yes, taekwondo could do these things, but it generally doesn't. Taekwondo could do lots of things. What it could do is irrelevant.
    If a Taekwondo guy decides to train in effective ways does this invalidate it as being Taekwondo? And are you making the claim that absolutely NO Taekwondo people in the entire world or in history ever trained effectively? If so what evidence do you suggest?
    You continue to make straw man arguments. I never made such a claim.

    I would like for you to tell me which Taekwondo technques he does that are ineffective. I suppose you are going to claim any technique he does that is effective and serious fighting is not taekwondo and he borrowed it from somewhere else?
    Effectiveness, as I already said and as any Bully will tell you, is in training methods and not techniques. The question isn't whether or not his techniques are effective; it's whether or not he is practicing them in a realistic way against realistic resistance. I have not found a video of him practicing techniques in a realistic way against realistic resistance; if you know of one, please link to it.

    What I assume is going to happen is you will see a guy doing actual Taekwondo techniques that are found inside of Taekwondo and reject them and claim they are not taekwondo simply because you have an ignorant bias and just for some reason do not like Taekwondo and refuse to believe common sense.
    Well, that turned out to be wrong.
    A round kick is a round kick, but you seem to want to say a round kick that does not work = Taekwondo, but any round kick that looks like it worked or was showne ffective is not Taekwondo. Even if its the same technique. Just stupid.
    More straw man. I never said anything of the sort.

    But again, effectiveness comes from training methods, not technique. A round kick is effective if it is trained in a realistic way against realistic resistance.

    With all the recent spin kick knockouts in the UFC one would assume more people would be open minded about taekwondo as a fighting system, but yet we still have people like you. Amazing.
    Are taekwondo players practicing those spin kicks in a realistic way against realistic resistance? I assure you the UFC fighters are, but I have seen none of it in taekwondo.

    I see you do aikido, is that any better?
    Irrelevant. I'm not making any claims of combat effectiveness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew WA View Post
    Sorry dude but he calls his gym Master Kwon's Full Contact Taekwondo, and this is sparring practice. he is teaching a student about sparring. In no way does this video state "Hey we are practicing FULL CONTACT RIGHT THIS SECOND AND HITTING EACH OTHER FULL ON CONTACT IN THIS VIDEO." No you are confusing the same of his dojang with watching a full contact sparring session. This is simply him teaching.
    Okay, then where are the videos of these "Full Contact Taekwondo" people doing anything full contact? I can only work with what I have. Or were you just expecting me to take your word for it?

    I suppose you think his teaching sucks and he probably has no basis in realistic self defense techniques?
    I didn't say his teaching sucked; I said it looked like good taekwondo. Go back and look.
    I grow weary of your attempts to put words in my mouth that I never said.

    What does one have to do in order to be prcticing THE REAL serious fighting and self defense and not all the fake stuff you claim Taekwondo teaches?
    "REAL serious fighting and self defense" is what happens when one trains against live opponents who are resisting in a realistic way. This is Bullshido 101, bro.

    Show me the video you are viewing that shows "nothing [you] would describe as realistic self-defense."
    The burden of proof is on the one claiming effectiveness. Where are the videos of this guy practicing his techniques against a live, fully-resisting opponent?


    I think you've got me all wrong, Andrew. I don't hate taekwondo. I did taekwondo for a couple of years and I really liked it. Had I the time and the money, I'd go back to it. But if you think that what is typically done in a taekwondo dojang is realistic self-defense training, you're misinformed.
  6. jedtex88 is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/08/2013 5:16am


     Style: Jhoon Rhee Tae-Kwon-Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Supreme View Post
    Did you just say "Bo staff"? Seriously? Give me 50 push ups kid and don't ever say it again.
    Will do! I never argue with a transformer.
  7. Andrew WA is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/08/2013 1:03pm


     Style: Taekwondo/Eskrima

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by OwlMatt View Post
    I never said that. Please re-read my post.

    I meant what I said. Read it for yourself; the words are pretty clear.

    Well, as I said before, I am unfamiliar with such a thing in taekwondo. Is this sparring done for points in pads like Olympic sparring, or some other way?

    Yeah, I'm pretty sure they already do that.

    You use a very important word here: could. Yes, taekwondo could do these things, but it generally doesn't. Taekwondo could do lots of things. What it could do is irrelevant.

    You continue to make straw man arguments. I never made such a claim.


    Effectiveness, as I already said and as any Bully will tell you, is in training methods and not techniques. The question isn't whether or not his techniques are effective; it's whether or not he is practicing them in a realistic way against realistic resistance. I have not found a video of him practicing techniques in a realistic way against realistic resistance; if you know of one, please link to it.


    Well, that turned out to be wrong.

    More straw man. I never said anything of the sort.

    But again, effectiveness comes from training methods, not technique. A round kick is effective if it is trained in a realistic way against realistic resistance.


    Are taekwondo players practicing those spin kicks in a realistic way against realistic resistance? I assure you the UFC fighters are, but I have seen none of it in taekwondo.


    Irrelevant. I'm not making any claims of combat effectiveness.


    Okay, then where are the videos of these "Full Contact Taekwondo" people doing anything full contact? I can only work with what I have. Or were you just expecting me to take your word for it?


    I didn't say his teaching sucked; I said it looked like good taekwondo. Go back and look.
    I grow weary of your attempts to put words in my mouth that I never said.


    "REAL serious fighting and self defense" is what happens when one trains against live opponents who are resisting in a realistic way. This is Bullshido 101, bro.


    The burden of proof is on the one claiming effectiveness. Where are the videos of this guy practicing his techniques against a live, fully-resisting opponent?


    I think you've got me all wrong, Andrew. I don't hate taekwondo. I did taekwondo for a couple of years and I really liked it. Had I the time and the money, I'd go back to it. But if you think that what is typically done in a taekwondo dojang is realistic self-defense training, you're misinformed.
    I am sorry but you argue in a way that communicates (whether intentional or non-intentional) a very sarcastic tone that implies certain underlying meanings. What you have said makes me ask questions about what exactly you are claiming. This is not a straw man argument. I am seeking clarification which you won't give. Your only retort seems to be "thats a straw man!" This is no way to argue a claim man. I don't need to waste time proving anything to you. You can continue to believe Taekwondo is ineffective. That is your call. I simply just choose to disagree with you. I am done here. Your arguments are not logical and I have shown you why, and you are simply just a stubborn skeptic and I feel you could have an agenda.

    Could could could, yes Taekwondo could be effective. And it is effective and people do train Taekwondo effective. YOU just personally have not witnessed it. I do agree that most and a lot of Taekwondo gyms are not teaching combat effective with realistic resistance though. That was my first point to begin with. But it does not mean Taekwondo itself does not or never does and never has.

    Your claim is like saying krav maga does not teach proper self defense because no one fights full contact or resists realisticly. It's a stupid argument. Self defense is not 100% full contact sparring all the time, nor is it "Lets put on boxing gloves and bang bro!" There is more to training in martial arts than that. Even BJJ does not drill every move full power and full resistance. You learn techniques in a vacuum and get it down. After you learn them well you can then add resistance and more until you can full on spar. Obviously no one is supposed to get their arm broken or get their eyes poked out in training. In Taekwondo you obviously should not spar with full on spear hand strikes to the eye sockets. This does not prove that such techniques are in effective. And yes my argument before you started responding was that many gyms do not teach effectively or much realistic stuff. But I have met oldschool Koreans and trained under them or instructors trained by them who did. These guys were over age 65 and also dead now.

    But if you want to base your entire belief about Taekwondo on what you can and cannot see on youtube videos then that is your choice. Please continue your own research, or don't (does not matter to me either way). Good day.
  8. Vieux Normand is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/08/2013 1:42pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: 血鷲

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Supreme View Post
    Did you just say "Bo staff"? Seriously? Give me 50 push ups kid and don't ever say it again.
    A years back, I had some excellent salsa sauce on Hachijo Jima island.
  9. Andrew WA is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/08/2013 2:09pm


     Style: Taekwondo/Eskrima

    0
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thi sis an example of quality Taekwondo training that helps people use Taekwondo effectively in fighting and/or self-defense. This is Grandmaster Hee Il Cho's son teaching a random class.

    I suppose some people will still say, "Yeah, but that is not Taekwondo. And they were not fighting full contact for realzzz" You just can't please some people...
  10. OwlMatt is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/08/2013 6:47pm


     Style: aikido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew WA View Post
    I am sorry but you argue in a way that communicates (whether intentional or non-intentional) a very sarcastic tone that implies certain underlying meanings.
    Part of the problem from the beginning has been that you are responding to what you think I am implying rather than to what I'm actually saying.

    Also, if you think what I've been posting is sarcasm, you haven't been around Bullshido very long. What sarcasm you are reading into my posting is nothing compared to what goes on here every day.
    What you have said makes me ask questions about what exactly you are claiming.
    I think I have made my claims quite clear.
    This is not a straw man argument. I am seeking clarification which you won't give. Your only retort seems to be "thats a straw man!" This is no way to argue a claim man.
    From Wikipedia:
    A straw man or straw person, also known in the UK as an Aunt Sally,[1][2] is a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[3] To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and to refute it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.[3][4]
    This is what you have been doing repeatedly. You have been making things up that I supposedly think and then refuting them. The trouble is, I don't think them, so you're actually arguing with an imaginary person inside your own head and not me. And when your response to me pointing this out is to complain about it rather than to go back and address what I actually said, I have a hard time taking you seriously.
    I don't need to waste time proving anything to you. You can continue to believe Taekwondo is ineffective. That is your call. I simply just choose to disagree with you. I am done here.
    Here on Bullshido we expect claims of effectiveness to be backed up with evidence. Evidence that taekwondo is an effective system of fighting and/or self-defence might consist of (a) a video of taekwondo being used in a real fight against a real person, or (b) a believable account from a reputable, objective source of taekwondo being used in a real fight against a real person. You have supplied nothing even close to this, therefore your claims of effectiveness are unsubstantiated, and the reasonable person rejects an unsubstantiated claim.
    Your arguments are not logical and I have shown you why,
    Let's recap what you have actually shown me:
    (1) You have claimed that taekwondo players practice techniques that have been proven to be effective. My response to that was (and is) that what techniques you train has much less to do with effectiveness than how you train them. I could practice a round kick (to use your example) a million times, but it wouldn't make me much better at fighting or self-defense unless I was practicing it against realistic resistance.
    (2) You have directed me to videos of two taekwondo instructors. In these videos I have seen a lot of punching and kicking air, a lot of breaking inanimate objects, and a lot of no-touch sparring. Obviously, none of these can serve as evidence that taekwondo works in a realistic fight or self-defense situation.
    and you are simply just a stubborn skeptic
    Bullshido is a community of stubborn skeptics.
    and I feel you could have an agenda.
    This is a classic bullshidoka argument: "You're just out to get me/my art!" I'm not, but even if I were, you could still find some facts to back up your claims and my "agenda" would come to nothing.
    Could could could, yes Taekwondo could be effective. And it is effective and people do train Taekwondo effective. YOU just personally have not witnessed it.
    Correct. And until I do witness it, or at least hear it from a reliable source that isn't invested in taekwondo, I'm not going to believe it. I think that's reasonable.
    I do agree that most and a lot of Taekwondo gyms are not teaching combat effective with realistic resistance though. That was my first point to begin with. But it does not mean Taekwondo itself does not or never does and never has.
    If it does or has, there must be evidence of it somewhere. I have not seen it, and you have been unwilling or unable to provide it.
    Your claim is like saying krav maga does not teach proper self defense because no one fights full contact or resists realisticly.
    You need to do some more research on krav maga. Krav guys gear up and beat the crap out of each other.
    It's a stupid argument. Self defense is not 100% full contact sparring all the time, nor is it "Lets put on boxing gloves and bang bro!"
    No, but that is an important element of it, an element that all the taekwondo I've ever seen is sorely lacking.
    There is more to training in martial arts than that.
    Yes, there is a great deal more to training martial arts than that. If there wasn't, I wouldn't train.
    Even BJJ does not drill every move full power and full resistance. You learn techniques in a vacuum and get it down. After you learn them well you can then add resistance and more until you can full on spar.
    How would you define "full on spar" in a taekwondo dojang?
    Obviously no one is supposed to get their arm broken or get their eyes poked out in training. In Taekwondo you obviously should not spar with full on spear hand strikes to the eye sockets. This does not prove that such techniques are in effective.
    Then how should you spar?
    And yes my argument before you started responding was that many gyms do not teach effectively or much realistic stuff. But I have met oldschool Koreans and trained under them or instructors trained by them who did. These guys were over age 65 and also dead now.
    And I said that argument relies on the assertion that taekwondo was ever a realistic fighting/self-defense style. And on Bullshido, that is an assertion that you cannot expect will simply be accepted without evidence. That's not how Bullshido works, and you have supplied no evidence.
    But if you want to base your entire belief about Taekwondo on what you can and cannot see on youtube videos then that is your choice. Please continue your own research, or don't (does not matter to me either way). Good day.
    Yes, I base my beliefs about taekwondo on what I have and have not seen. I think that is reasonable. What's wrong with that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew WA View Post
    Thi sis an example of quality Taekwondo training that helps people use Taekwondo effectively in fighting and/or self-defense. This is Grandmaster Hee Il Cho's son teaching a random class.

    I suppose some people will still say, "Yeah, but that is not Taekwondo. And they were not fighting full contact for realzzz" You just can't please some people...
    This is good stuff. It's nice to see a taekwondo instructor really working on non-competition techniques with pads rather than just including them in poomsae. It's also nice to see light sparring that gives students a chance to practice non-competition techniques in a dynamic context. This would be a cool place to train.

    That said, this video doesn't really work as evidence to support a claim of effectiveness. What you have here is evidence that taekwondo works great against pads and in no-contact or maybe light-contact sparring.
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