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  1. Andrew WA is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/07/2013 1:33pm


     Style: Taekwondo/Eskrima

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by OwlMatt View Post
    I have family in Georgia; I've noticed that as well. In any case, no matter how Christian you are personally, someone trying to teach you a Christian version of Asian martial arts is bad news.
    I am a Christian and I agree with this.
  2. Andrew WA is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/07/2013 1:48pm


     Style: Taekwondo/Eskrima

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorekara View Post
    I work at a place with a little over 100 people. I've found out there's 3 people there that took Taekwondo. On person too Hapkido. (which, I probably foolishly, aquaint with taekwondo). One guy tells me he's a 3rd degree BB, another tells me he has his BB and his hands are registered lethal weapons. My cousin started Taekwondo, and his sons started Taekwondo. Why is there so much interest in Taekwondo? I would add more, but for some reason my enter button doesn't work.
    In my opinion Taekwondo has much interest worldwide because when the Koreans went out to spread it they sent a large amount of masters much like missionaries. They also called it Karate in the 60's and 70's and even 80's. Some dojangs still have a large and very old "Karate" sign on the building, but when you go in you see Korean flags.

    Also the fact ITF and KKW Taekwondo (WTF style) were 2 organizations who at the same time sent many Koreans out advertising Taekwondo through demonstrations. The general public did not understand martial arts or difference between Tekwondo and Karate. Also the movie industry uses a lot of kicks in fight scenes. Taekwondo has all of the cool looking kicks and fast legs.

    Many Taekwondo gyms advertised how Taekwondo has amazing kicks (people associate martial arts with kicks more than punches), and they advertised "good for multiple opponents." Whats old me on Taekwondo as a kid was that TKD had a lot of kicks, claimed it could deal with multiple opponents, was a self defense system, had joint locks, had pressure points etc. So I joined thinking it was a badass fighting system. Then they got me into olympic sparring and tournaments and I was pretty good during my time and won a lot of small tournaments.

    Taekwondo is easy to market as a positive teaching curriculum for parents to be imrpessed with. taekwondo also has a military style culture in how they conduct class with standing at attention, being yelled at, told to say "yes sir, no sir" etc. Parents love it. It does actually improve kids behavior as well with the right instructors and does motivate kids to do good in school. It did for me as well and I was a teenager at the time. Taekwondo builds confidence and helps people a lot in life. Without my training I would have been way more shy.

    now the problem with this is Taekwondo makes so much money most gyms have sold out and do not teach realistic fighting very often at all and focus on sport sparring and poomsae tournaments. They dont even teach application to the forms either. Most Taekwondo gyms will not focus on serious self defense or realistic fighting. The olympic sport culture is too ingrained in most instructors now days. but I was lucky to train by an instructor who was under Grandmaster Tae Hong Choi who focused on more self defense than tournaments and much of our curriculum had combatives style self defense escapes and one steps. All though he did fully support WTF tournaments and was chairman etc.

    Finding a serious Taekwondo gym that teaches as a martial art is a gem! If you find it you are lucky and if Taekwondo is an interest JOIN! But most often they won't be good. Also the GIGANTIC amount of random TKD organizations that exist with 30 year old 9th dans and other nonsense and people who claim "chang hon" Taekwondo who are simply independent gyms with no ties to anyone exist and have no quality control from a large organization. Or they are memebers of some random "american" style taekwondo organization.

    Sometimes people who do Taekwondo or only have Taekwondo around, or like Taekwondo but want to train serious have to just take the curriculum and learn the poomsae and train outside their dojangs to get good and also practice self defense more effectively. They simply use the gym to gain their ranks, but simply training in class only wont get them good because of the lack of good teaching or quality sparring partners.

    Even so I love Taekwondo and think it is a great martial art and if used as a martial art it is much like typical kickboxing and has some decent standing self defense escapes if you are lucky to get a teacher who trains them.
  3. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    6/07/2013 2:12pm

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Taekwondo is easy to market as a positive teaching curriculum for parents to be imrpessed with. taekwondo also has a military style culture in how they conduct class with standing at attention, being yelled at, told to say "yes sir, no sir" etc. Parents love it. It does actually improve kids behavior as well with the right instructors and does motivate kids to do good in school. It did for me as well and I was a teenager at the time. Taekwondo builds confidence and helps people a lot in life. Without my training I would have been way more shy.
    I've kinda wondered if this "YES SIR!" culture, where they recite the principles of tae kwon do in organized shouts ("Discipline!" "Perserverence!" etc) and all, was something universally taught in TKD or if its just a kids thing. After my stint in informal martial arts I don't know if I could tolerate that kind of thing without smirking.
  4. DerAuslander is offline
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    Valiant Monk of Booze & War

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    Posted On:
    6/07/2013 3:16pm

    supporting memberstaff
     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    I've kinda wondered if this "YES SIR!" culture, where they recite the principles of tae kwon do in organized shouts ("Discipline!" "Perserverence!" etc) and all, was something universally taught in TKD or if its just a kids thing. After my stint in informal martial arts I don't know if I could tolerate that kind of thing without smirking.
    It's a ROK military thing that was originally done with adults and then filtered into kids classes.
  5. Andrew WA is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/07/2013 3:27pm


     Style: Taekwondo/Eskrima

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    I've kinda wondered if this "YES SIR!" culture, where they recite the principles of tae kwon do in organized shouts ("Discipline!" "Perserverence!" etc) and all, was something universally taught in TKD or if its just a kids thing. After my stint in informal martial arts I don't know if I could tolerate that kind of thing without smirking.
    Well I dont remember being forced to say stuff like that by any Korean masters, but Americans did adopt such silliness. The only things Koreans made you say were, "YES SIR! NO SIR!" and bowing with respect to senior instructors etc...and fall in line and bow into class (salute the flags etc.). But it wasnt nonsense like the ITF lingo "champion of freedom and justice" nonsense. Most KKW/WTF korean masters simply just have the military style of culture in their training in my experience. I personally think this is a positive thing and helps build character. I think strong character is important for martial arts. I like learning a martial art a long with its distinct martial arts culture.

    But im sure now we have younger generation Koreans copying pop-psychology and feel good recitation crap though. They know how to work for american yuppy parents money to make their kids feel special.
    Last edited by Andrew WA; 6/07/2013 3:31pm at .
  6. OwlMatt is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/07/2013 4:01pm


     Style: aikido

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew WA View Post
    now the problem with this is Taekwondo makes so much money most gyms have sold out and do not teach realistic fighting very often at all and focus on sport sparring and poomsae tournaments. They dont even teach application to the forms either. Most Taekwondo gyms will not focus on serious self defense or realistic fighting. The olympic sport culture is too ingrained in most instructors now days. but I was lucky to train by an instructor who was under Grandmaster Tae Hong Choi who focused on more self defense than tournaments and much of our curriculum had combatives style self defense escapes and one steps. All though he did fully support WTF tournaments and was chairman etc.
    To say that taekwondo clubs have "sold out" and don't teach realistic fighting anymore, you must first assert that taekwondo was ever a realistic fighting system. I think you'd have a hard time providing any strong evidence for that.

    I think the shift toward sport in taekwondo is a good thing. I think it encourages taekwondo players to focus on taekwondo's real benefits -- that is, physical fitness and opportunity for competition -- rather than the unrealistic dream of becoming a fighter. You become a fighter by fighting, not by training in a taekwondo dojang.
  7. Andrew WA is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/07/2013 6:51pm


     Style: Taekwondo/Eskrima

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by OwlMatt View Post
    To say that taekwondo clubs have "sold out" and don't teach realistic fighting anymore, you must first assert that taekwondo was ever a realistic fighting system. I think you'd have a hard time providing any strong evidence for that.

    I think the shift toward sport in taekwondo is a good thing. I think it encourages taekwondo players to focus on taekwondo's real benefits -- that is, physical fitness and opportunity for competition -- rather than the unrealistic dream of becoming a fighter. You become a fighter by fighting, not by training in a taekwondo dojang.
    Thats not what I meant. Taekwondo is a combat/self defense system. Much like shotokan was. To say it's not realistic in and of itself (with its techniques that exist in themselves) or never was is wrong. I never meant TKD gyms used to pump out hardcore fighters who could beat everyone up and proven in MMA or whatever. Seriously, please watch a video on youtube with Grandmaster Hee Il Cho and compare it with the average TKD gym and tell me if one seems more realistic. Oldschool Taekwondo masters were more rough than you would assume, but most of them died or are about to die. If a TKD dojang had plenty of sparring and self defense drilling then I am sure it's beneficial. If they simply do flashy XMA stuff then it is not beneficial. That is kind of what I meant by sold out.

    I could apply the exact same logic to any kind of gym: You become a good fighter by fighting, not by training in an MMA gym. Insert any martial art in there.
  8. Andrew WA is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/07/2013 6:56pm


     Style: Taekwondo/Eskrima

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by OwlMatt View Post
    I think the shift toward sport in taekwondo is a good thing. I think it encourages taekwondo players to focus on taekwondo's real benefits -- that is, physical fitness and opportunity for competition --
    I was never really talking about becoming a pro fighter. I was however saying you could be trained in some techniuques that work in a real fight and self defense. not that TKD training alone will get you into the UFC.
    I do not think sport sparring is a negative thing in itself and I also teach it. But I spend WAAAAY more time on kickboxing type sparring than olympic sparring and a lot of time on ho shin sool and one steps (combatives type drilling).
    focusing 100% on poomsae tournaments, and olympic sparring does not promote the full art of Taekwondo but only a part of it. I believe a Taekwondo black belt level student should not only know how to spar in tournaments but actually know some self defense and how to carry himself in typical striking including leg and face striking because like it or not we live in a violent world and SOMETIMES people end up fighting outside of gyms and outside of competitions when they get attacked. Self defense is important we dont only live in an MMA world.
  9. OwlMatt is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/07/2013 8:27pm


     Style: aikido

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew WA View Post
    I was never really talking about becoming a pro fighter. I was however saying you could be trained in some techniuques that work in a real fight and self defense. not that TKD training alone will get you into the UFC.
    I wasn't talking about bring a pro fighter either. I'm talking about the belief that taekwondo is -- or even ever was -- an effective fighting or self-defense system. I have never seen any evidence that supports this belief.
    I do not think sport sparring is a negative thing in itself and I also teach it. But I spend WAAAAY more time on kickboxing type sparring than olympic sparring
    What do you mean by "kickboxing type sparring"? I am unfamiliar with such a thing being a part of taekwondo.
    and a lot of time on ho shin sool and one steps (combatives type drilling).
    I have never seen any hosinsul or one-step drills that function as realistic self-defense training. If you are saying that such a thing exists, could you find a video of it?
    focusing 100% on poomsae tournaments, and olympic sparring does not promote the full art of Taekwondo but only a part of it. I believe a Taekwondo black belt level student should not only know how to spar in tournaments but actually know some self defense and how to carry himself in typical striking including leg and face striking because like it or not we live in a violent world and SOMETIMES people end up fighting outside of gyms and outside of competitions when they get attacked. Self defense is important we dont only live in an MMA world.
    And I believe that someone who wants the kind of real self-defense skills you're talking about won't find them in taekwondo.
  10. Andrew WA is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/07/2013 8:34pm


     Style: Taekwondo/Eskrima

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by OwlMatt View Post
    I wasn't talking about bring a pro fighter either. I'm talking about the belief that taekwondo is -- or even ever was -- an effective fighting or self-defense system. I have never seen any evidence that supports this belief.

    What do you mean by "kickboxing type sparring"? I am unfamiliar with such a thing being a part of taekwondo.

    I have never seen any hosinsul or one-step drills that function as realistic self-defense training. If you are saying that such a thing exists, could you find a video of it?

    And I believe that someone who wants the kind of real self-defense skills you're talking about won't find them in taekwondo.
    I am just going to have to disagree with you on this. I don't need to explain things you already will reject no matter what because you have already made up your mind. Yeah because Taekwondo in no way AT ALL teaches punches to the face or is allowed to be called Taekwondo when used in other sport fighting.

    Like I said go look at the evidence by checking out Hee Il Cho and then tell me why none of his techniques are proven effective in any form of fighting or self defense. And then explain why he is in no way doing anything related to Taekwondo while he is wearing a dobak, black belt, is a Korean grandmaster of Taekwondo etc...

    Also look up Master Kwon's full contact Taekwondo videos.
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