Terminology issue with scramble

[combathug]

All right, first off thanks for your help, that video is definitely different from what I have seen.

So my wrestling knowledge is limited (straight BJJ) so let me see if I have this straight

So if you are in a clinch with someone, and both people have real pressure, and neither is clearly in control, this is a scramble? This means that things like "50/50 grip" in Judo(each person has sleeve and collar) aren't really scrambles since neither person has real pressure, but when you and your opponent have both have single legs and neither can finish that would be?

Or, in general this is being "engaged" or in a clinch (is there a difference?) and both people have pressure and are jockying to dominate the clinch?

This would explain why I have trouble understanding, since my clinch work is terrible and I am often not real clear on who is winning from a tie up or clinch.

This definitely is becoming clearer, so thank you. Also explains why it's hard to explain (when someone is clearly in control of a clinch seems to be fairly technical in my experience).

Thanks
-PS: who's the lady in the photo at around the 6 min mark?

[jnp]

All right, first off thanks for your help, that video is definitely different from what I have seen.

So my wrestling knowledge is limited (straight BJJ) so let me see if I have this straight

So if you are in a clinch with someone, and both people have real pressure, and neither is clearly in control, this is a scramble? This means that things like "50/50 grip" in Judo(each person has sleeve and collar) aren't really scrambles since neither person has real pressure, but when you and your opponent have both have single legs and neither can finish that would be?

Or, in general this is being "engaged" or in a clinch (is there a difference?) and both people have pressure and are jockying to dominate the clinch?

This would explain why I have trouble understanding, since my clinch work is terrible and I am often not real clear on who is winning from a tie up or clinch.

This definitely is becoming clearer, so thank you. Also explains why it's hard to explain (when someone is clearly in control of a clinch seems to be fairly technical in my experience).

Thanks
-PS: who's the lady in the photo at around the 6 min mark?

Most of what beginner grapplers do is scramble when paired with each other. I'm starting to wonder if you even train since any grappling novice with competent instruction will be taught what consists of scrambling and what doesn't.

Watch this,



Notice how neither grappler has any real control over the other? As previously stated, this is the definition of a scramble.

[combathug]

All right thanks for that, that clears it up.

And yes I do train. Although my total knowledge about scrambling has thus far been "avoid it".

I guess at this point the only thing that puzzles me is, if 1 person is passing and the other sweeping, and neither is really having any success, is that scrambling? If so then that explains why I am confused (we don't call that scrambling.)

[jnp]

All right thanks for that, that clears it up.

And yes I do train. Although my total knowledge about scrambling has thus far been "avoid it".

I guess at this point the only thing that puzzles me is, if 1 person is passing and the other sweeping, and neither is really having any success, is that scrambling? If so then that explains why I am confused (we don't call that scrambling.)

A scramble is characterized by a lack of control by both parties. Conversely, if one guy is attempting to pass guard while the other is successfully defending, both have some measure of control. If top guy passes while maintaining control, there is no scramble. If bottom guy sweeps with control, there is no scramble.

If bottom guy starts to sweep, messes up the technique and loses control while top guy struggles to regain posture so he can start to pass again, then you are scrambling.

[combathug]

Oh, wow, I read good apparently...

So if both people have control, no scramble, if 1 person has control, no scramble, if neither has control, scramble? All right that makes sense.

Then the obvious question is "what is control", but I have seen several breakdowns of matches to know that this is a complicated topic that will (hopefully) come with time.

Is this less prevalent in the gi? because I really feel like this doesn't happen very much to me (not never, but usually I am either losing or...well, usually I am losing, but the small remainder of the time I am controlling the other person). Outright neither person really is in control feels like it's rare, but that might be my human perception, or inability to see what is occurring.

Thanks again, that for some reason took forever for me to read correctly.

[Omega Supreme]

Oh, wow, I read good apparently...

So if both people have control, no scramble, if 1 person has control, no scramble, if neither has control, scramble? All right that makes sense.

Then the obvious question is "what is control", but I have seen several breakdowns of matches to know that this is a complicated topic that will (hopefully) come with time.

Is this less prevalent in the gi? because I really feel like this doesn't happen very much to me (not never, but usually I am either losing or...well, usually I am losing, but the small remainder of the time I am controlling the other person). Outright neither person really is in control feels like it's rare, but that might be my human perception, or inability to see what is occurring.

Thanks again, that for some reason took forever for me to read correctly.

Dude. Both guys cannot be in control.

[combathug]

Dude. Both guys cannot be in control.

Conversely, if one guy is attempting to pass guard while the other is successfully defending, both have some measure of control

????
I take it in the case I am describing there is an "attacker" and a "defender" and the attacker is considered in control?

Regardless I think I understand the "neither person has control thing", the next step is to figure out how to determine who is in control, but that's a completely separate and much larger topic.

Thanks guys.

[Soldiermedic]

I know in your intro thread you had said that you had been training bjj for less than a year...does your school not have a randori period at the end of your class? Cause it seems improbable for someone training alive to have this much of an issue grasping this concept.

Or you have a very serious issue with overthinking things.

[combathug]

We don't call it that, but yes many classes have positional rounds at the end.

And yes that is probably correct

[jnp]

We don't call it that, but yes many classes have positional rounds at the end.

And yes that is probably correct

Randori, or free sparring, is not the same as "positional rounds". Positional rounds implies sparring in a specific set of positions and resetting when the goal of the drill is achieved by one partner. So the drill normally termed "Pass, sweep or submit" wherein top guy tries to pass guard and bottom guy in guard tries to sweep or submit is not the same as free sparring.

Now, that is not to say a scramble will not occur during this type of drill, but you seem confused about the definition of the term Randori.

One more thing, while I don't believe this is currently the case, if I determine that you are trolling the technique forums by being deliberately obtuse, I will permanently ban you from this website. I have zero patience with trolls in the technique forums.

As it stands now, I think you have a reading comprehension issue. That is not something we appreciate on this site. I suggest you read each post you want to respond to three or four times before posting and take a minute to ensure you understand what is being typed.