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  1. Devil is offline
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    His heart was visible, and the dismal sack that maketh excrement of what is eaten.

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    Posted On:
    1/29/2013 3:46pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Phillips View Post
    Are you saying propeller driven aircraft can travel fast enough to sheer off their own wings? I thought you said the exact opposite earlier.
    What are you talking about? Any aircraft can have a wing failure given the right conditions.
  2. W. Rabbit is offline
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    Posted On:
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This is an example of where conspiracy theorists break from mainstream science..they start to fudge facts to fit their theory and begin to avoid noticing their own mistakes in an effort to find mistakes in the "official story".

    Stop saying "sea level". This is an unscientific "fudge" to help you hedge your theory. The planes struck above 1,000 feet on a clear weather day.

    Stop saying "Should have disintegrated". That is using a design factor (max safe airspeed at various altitudes) and using it as a pass/fail litmus test to validate your theory.

    Either the speed to disintegration estimate for a Boeing 767 is wrong, or, if it is correct, then that can not be a Boeing 767. That's simple Logic.
    Simple logic can easily be wrong when used to describe complex situations, which is why yours is wrong.
  3. Matt Phillips is online now
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    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    1/29/2013 3:48pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Devil View Post
    The problem with forming an opinion and digging in like a tick when you don't have the independent knowledge to arrive at your own informed conclusion is that you're at the mercy of whichever party argues their position with the most charisma. I know this to be true because I have won many arguments and influenced many people while basically talking out of my ass. (Don't quote me on that.)

    For this reason, I'll put this one in the **** If I Know column.
    I got started on this because my (former) sister-in-law introduced me it. She is a career airline pilot for SAS, and flew a prop plane for years making deliveries for the UN in Kenya. She's a foreign national who received her commercial pilot license from a private school in the American south, before training to become an airline pilot. She flies the same plane (767) and is considered VERY good at what she does. She regards the maneuver executed as next to impossible. I know how good she is at flying prop planes, and I know how experienced she is at flying the 767. If she thinks it's beyond her ability, I am inclined to look at the actual numbers closely.
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

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    Luta Livre flees the fight,
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  4. Matt Phillips is online now
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    Posted On:
    1/29/2013 4:00pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    This is an absurd claim.
    That's a strong statement. Why do you think this?


    The planes were never at "sea level". Flight 175 was at an altitude of approximately 1000 feet at the time of impact. While not "sea level" there is a significant air pressure difference between actual sea level and 1,000 feet above (around 5% per 300m, depending on the weather and temperature).
    I did the calculations for 700 feet and they didn't affect the result.

    No, you are just jumping to conclusions based on hearsay.
    Let's see, I reported the speed measured by radar, the model of the plane, the maximum cruising speed for said plane, the measured speed at disintegration for another plane of the same type, the converted figures for lower altitude, a complete inventory of the pilots training detailing every instance he received instruction, and the reported failure of career 737 pilots to duplicate what was observed. Where is the hearsay?
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  5. Devil is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/29/2013 4:01pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Phillips View Post
    I got started on this because my (former) sister-in-law introduced me it. She is a career airline pilot for SAS, and flew a prop plane for years making deliveries for the UN in Kenya. She's a foreign national who received her commercial pilot license from a private school in the American south, before training to become an airline pilot. She flies the same plane (767) and is considered VERY good at what she does. She regards the maneuver executed as next to impossible. I know how good she is at flying prop planes, and I know how experienced she is at flying the 767. If she thinks it's beyond her ability, I am inclined to look at the actual numbers closely.
    I'm sure she is a fine and highly experienced pilot. And there are other fine and highly experienced pilots who don't seem to think it would be that big of a deal to do this. Let's call that a wash.

    Add in the possibility of some of these assumptions being based on erroneous flight data and you have a whole big bowl of **** all.
  6. Matt Phillips is online now
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    Posted On:
    1/29/2013 4:03pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Devil View Post
    Come on, man. You gave one example of an airframe failure in different conditions with a slew of other potential variables. You're scientifically trained, right? So you'll know that's not exactly a fucking smoking gun.
    Boeing does not make their wind tunnel data public. There is only one known instance of a 767 traveling significantly about max cruising speed. That plane flew into pieces. In the absence of wind tunnel data, we can only look to real world accidents for precedent.
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  7. Devil is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/29/2013 4:05pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Phillips View Post
    Boeing does not make their wind tunnel data public. There is only one known instance of a 767 traveling significantly about max cruising speed. That plane flew into pieces. In the absence of wind tunnel data, we can only look to real world accidents for precedent.
    One example. Infinite variables. You got nothing.
  8. Matt Phillips is online now
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    Posted On:
    1/29/2013 4:17pm

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    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    This is an example of where conspiracy theorists break from mainstream science..they start to fudge facts to fit their theory and begin to avoid noticing their own mistakes in an effort to find mistakes in the "official story".
    I am not a conspiracy theorist, and I do not endorse any alternative view of what happened that day. Which conspiracy do you imagine I am theorizing about?

    Stop saying "sea level". This is an unscientific "fudge" to help you hedge your theory. The planes struck above 1,000 feet on a clear weather day.
    The difference between sea level and 1000 ft amounts to 0.0025 Mach, which doesn't affect the argument being made at all.

    Stop saying "Should have disintegrated". That is using a design factor (max safe airspeed at various altitudes) and using it as a pass/fail litmus test to validate your theory.
    I'm not using max cruising speed, I'm using the measured speed that EA990 broke up at, at 22,000 feet, and looking for the equivalent speed at lower altitudes.

    Simple logic can easily be wrong when used to describe complex situations, which is why yours is wrong.
    No. No it can't. Logic is logic. You can argue that I've set up the problem wrong, or that I misused a form of deduction, but you can't argue that the deductive form I used is invalid.
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  9. Matt Phillips is online now
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    Posted On:
    1/29/2013 4:20pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Devil View Post
    I'm sure she is a fine and highly experienced pilot. And there are other fine and highly experienced pilots who don't seem to think it would be that big of a deal to do this. Let's call that a wash.
    I'm not basing my argument on her testimony, or on any other pilot's feeling that they could have made the hit; I'm looking at the fact that none of the veteran pilots who tried could duplicate the the feat in simulator. That is much more persuasive, because it is test, and not an opinion.

    Add in the possibility of some of these assumptions being based on erroneous flight data and you have a whole big bowl of **** all.[/QUOTE]
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  10. Matt Phillips is online now
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    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    1/29/2013 4:23pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Devil View Post
    One example. Infinite variables. You got nothing.
    There was a time when only one person had been shot in the head with a firearm. Should a rational person take his resulting grievous injury (or death) as a sign that this is the likely result? I say yes; you appear to disagree.
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
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