United Airways 175

[Devil]

I happen to know a bona fide, no bullshit, card carrying Top Gun. I'll ask him what he thinks.

[Devil]

One other thing. You should register to the forums at Pilotsofamerica.com and pose this question there. Lots of experience there and they love to talk shop.

[mike321]

The official maximum speed for a Boeing 767 is Mach 0.86 at 35,000 ft, or Mach 0.65 at sea level, corresponding to approximately 430 knots.

This is commonly available information which you can find in many places including this: http://www.britishairways.com/travel.../public/en_gb#

Thanks. Please provide sources for the 767s that have disintegrated in flight. I am trying to look at your questions a bit at a time.

[Matt Phillips]

Source please. I remember this and heard it is partial misinformation and based on semantic arguments.

This is interesting:
http://www.911myths.com/index.php/Fl...chool_Dropouts

CPL and had started working on jets in simulations. I know, never piloted is still correct, but it says they had at least 600 hundred hours and licenses in some cases.

Have no time to source right now, have fun.

From the FBI summary of Al-Shehhi's movements, actions and transactions (http://www.911myths.com/images/7/7c/...n-Alshehhi.pdf)

Intermittent training at huffman from 07/17/2000 to 01/2001
7/30 solo flights at huffman
08/09/2000 requests a new flight instructor
08/14/2000 Al-Shehhi and Atta take and pass their private pilot airplane tests, with Atta scoring higher.
09/2000 Al-shehhi receives 3-4 hours of training a day for the month of September at Jones Aviation in Florida
09/08/2000 Issued something called a se/pp certificate using a 1971 Cesna owned by Huffman.
10/94/2000 Both men take and fail their Stage I exam at Jones Aviation.
11/06/2000 Both men take and pass their FAA Instrument Rating Airplane test. Atta scores the higher of the two.
12/19/2000 Both men take and pass their FAA/FCC Commercial Pilot Airplane tests. Atta scores the highest. Inspection of this test will show that it deals specifically with propeller aircraft http://www.faa.gov/training_testing/...S-8081-12C.pdf
12/21/2000 Al-Shehhi receives his FAA Commercial Pilots license, certified in Multi-engine land, Single engine land, and Airplane instrument
12/29/2000-12/30/2000 Both men train in a 727 simulator at Simcenter in the Miami area. This school was later closed for defrauding students.
01/04/2001 Al-Shehhi conducts first solo flight in Venice, FLA

This is the full extent of Al-Shehhi's training operating aircraft.

[Matt Phillips]

Don't have time to watch the videos now so I only had a quick read through, and I am not a jet pilot. I have just a very small bit of flight experience (<100 hrs) in small planes. What jumped out at me though is the idea that the plane would be harder to maneuver at high speed. That seems weird. Typically a plane is more responsive at high speed because of the increased airflow over the control surfaces. Obviously, radical banking could cause a wing to come off at high speed, but it seems like making minor corrections to fly to a specific point would be easier. The slower you fly, the harder it is to maneuver. The controls get mushy and respond slowly because air is flowing over the wing slower. That's why landing is the hardest thing to learn. Just my quick observation.

Prop planes do not have the thrust to travel at speeds where turbulence causes the plane's wings to distort and sheer off, or to move the center of pressure so far aft that the controls reverse.

[Devil]

09/08/2000 Issued something called a se/pp certificate

Single Engine / Private Pilot

Regarding the commercial rating - this means he would have had a minimum of 250 hours. And obtaining an instrument rating is no easy task and requires a pretty decent level of knowledge. I don't know the total number of hours he had or the extent of his simulator training, but you can't paint this guy like he was a rank noob who just stumbled into an airplane for a few hours.

[Matt Phillips]

Single Engine / Private Pilot

Regarding the commercial rating - this means he would have had a minimum of 250 hours. And obtaining an instrument rating is no easy task and requires a pretty decent level of knowledge.

Out of curiosity, have you obtained this rating yourself?

I don't know the total number of hours he had or the extent of his simulator training,

12/29/2000-12/30/2000 Both men train in a 727 simulator at Simcenter in the Miami area. This school was later closed for defrauding students.

but you can't paint this guy like he was a rank noob who just stumbled into an airplane for a few hours.

I'm painting him as someone with out the expertise to accomplish what was observed on 9/11. Veteran 737 pilots could only match this feat at speeds of 100-150 knots (ie: landing speed) in simulation. Al-Sheshhi had 2 days of 727 simulator training at a sketchy school, and a commercial pilot airplane license, and accomplished the WTC1 strike in a real plane (and a 767) at 447 knots near sea level.

[Omega Supreme]

Just to clarify that's 514mph or 827kph. At sea level.

[Matt Phillips]

Thanks. Please provide sources for the 767s that have disintegrated in flight. I am trying to look at your questions a bit at a time.

EgyptAir 990 broke up in the air over the Atlantic after the co-pilot took it into a power dive. It exceeded Mach 0.86 for approx. 30s and broke up in the air, causing 2 distinct debris fields. See http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/reports/2002/AAB0201.pdf

[Omega Supreme]

Also to clarify, atmospheric density, like water pressure, is much higher at low altitudes. Therefore it is easier to reach higher speeds at higher altitudes because of lower air friction. That video is very fascinating.