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  1. Resonance10 is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/25/2013 5:38pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Rock Ape View Post
    Just had a snotty PM from the OP.

    I moved this ****-filled thread from a place where it would have likely got **** canned. I said nothing, no infractions, no pithy comments about you being a NOOB or anything and I get a PM telling me I'm "Disrespectful" ?

    GO **** YOURSELF

    How's that for disrespect?

    Oh and welcome to the cesspoll.

    Twat.
    Wtf is he calling you disrespectful for? You didn't even post in his thread..
    Funny I wanted to call him Troll earlier but didn't as we were in Newbietown, had a feeling tho.
  2. Detachment is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/25/2013 5:40pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Valid question, but here's kind of a silly answer: anywhere that's both fair and open-ended. Seriously, you can take a venue as large as "anywhere" and plenty of arts have no evidence besides stories.
    In MMA you can't poke someone's eyes out or kick someone a lethal kick in the nuts or break someone's neck , That would be useful in a war situation or a serious life-death situation , And would take an opponent fast thus effective in such context , Yet in a sports-based context , The non-lethal techniques are only put in mind when measuring effectiveness , That's what I meant .

    Here's what really irked me about the Krav Maga Human Weapon episode- the padded attackers would continuously attack Doug and Jimmy no matter what they did, but when the KM instructor did it, the "attackers" would shell up after a light blow and stay that way while the instructor mocked some extra moves while yelling. They've added dust and footwork and screaming but I still saw a good amount of "playing along" for the teacher, because after months/years of training with people, you develop unspoken cues that a savy teacher can exploit.
    I haven't noticed that , But you're right , I think they were even over-doing it when they fighting them in the whole "Aggression", Even in FightQuest , It seems like more of a propaganda for the army as fearsome rather than anything else .

    Though I've had a program "Commando Krav Maga" , That shows many positions and talks about it realistically and how it's easy to get stabbed(In training) many times until you get better with the technique and all the variations .

    What I just pinpointed though is just how when they were walking in the beginning they weren't capable of dealing with basic knife attacks even though both practiced Wrestling & MMA .

    The reality of multiple opponents is something like this: two unarmed opponents is more than enough for most people; multiple opponents with weapons is nearly impossible to overcome without fleeing or superior weapons/allies.

    Recently, two of my senior training partners were testing for Guro (master) title, and I participated in the test as a feeder and a drummer. At the end, my teacher gestures me up and tells me to put on my sparring gear. Three of us, armed with sticks, took on the aspiring new masters, one of them at a time versus three of us. They'd both studied FMA for a decade, and one of them was a law enforcement trainer and aikido master, who could actually make aikido work! Wanna know what happened when we all squared off?

    We kicked their asses! And it was expected! As soon as they'd engage one of us, the others would either flank them and hit their head, or start whacking them in the legs. Fighting against 3 brains with 12 limbs and several hundred pounds of meat is a lot to take on.
    Thanks for sharing bro(P.S what is a feeder & drummer?) , And I would totally agree with you about based on this context and the experience of the people attacking .

    Yet , A Question , Lets say supposedly doesn't the context of the situation if it were a street fight and the 3 (unarmed and inexperienced lets assume) guys were attacking the same guy , Would the situation be different in the way it moves on and its result ?


    The thing that I learned from that was that multiple opponents with weapons is a bunch of chaos. So, if you really want to train for that kind of thing, there has to be some chaos in your training.
    So true , There are like thousands of possibilities as the numbers go up , How do you infuse such chaos in training effectively ?

    But you're measuring it on an environment with no consistent parameters. Your survival environment and that of others are totally different, and survival is more than the sum of what you did or didn't do. The real world is full of forces bigger than martial arts training can account for. I don't blame arnis if I get hit by a car or killed by a gang of a dozen men with guns.
    No measurement is ever accurate or complete , To be able to do so one would need know every single factor not including all the unseen completely and till now not even science has reached even close to that , Not including how something could be meant to happen as fate .

    So I understand , It's all just trials of preparation with nothing guaranteed , One of the world's greatest swimmers died swimming .We can't escape death if it's meant to be , Though this is all a way to defend ourselves when we can and train for situations that could be escaped , That's all .

    I'd say that even typical karate is a world apart when studied as an adult rather than a child. "I did some karate when I was a kid" is usually on par with "nothing", in my experience.
    I totally agree , It only counts in making it easier for one to start doing in again as he grows up nothing more .


    Alternative?

    I've done a krav maga drill where 2-3 guys zombie attack you with knives, and the objective is to keep them in a line or visual cone by using footwork. Without the cone/line, as soon as you engage one, the other will stab you in the back, and when you turn to face them, the other guy will stab you in the back, and so on until you die like a cartoon character. Problems:
    -in a tight space, you will not be able to establish the cone/line, because there's not enough room for the footwork.

    -its pretty easy to "die" in this drill even with lazy zombie attacks. Real-life sewing machine attacks? Very unlikely to survive unharmed.

    -krav maga, systema, etc drills with multiple attackers tend to have this lazy zombie attack style, or an overly restricted array of attacks.

    -being attacked by a good-sized group is often accompanied by missile weapons (bottles, bricks etc). Nearly no arts account for thrown weapons (sayoc and atienza kali styles do).
    This is truly insightful , Though as an alternative isn't there are methods of "escape" to train for to increase the odds even if it's very small .(Using weapons or the environment..etc)



    Then you'd better be a smooth talker or have a smooth...nevermind.
    lol =) .


    The thing is if these ultimate fighting systems really worked anywhere, they should work in the ring too, right? I mean, if krav/systema/etc guys are always losing in casual sparring matches and/or MMA fights it doesn't do much for their claims that it works on the battlefield, against multiple opponents. Yes, I know the argument about how the rules mean its not a real fight, but the real world is full of rules so its another example of whether or not the fighter can adapt.
    It's indeed it's not a real fight , For example in James Painter , RocknRoll jail fighting system , One of the techniques is to do a jab in the air and then go with striking speed towards his balls revolve them & yank them hard and then switch hands to be able to thrown him over his friend , Or run & vault at the guy with full force , Bite his chest with full strength and move your mouth right & left to make him know and whomever around that you mean business .

    This is a brutal example of using such a style and it doesn't involve death .

    In Krav Maga & Silat , There are many moves that are designed to take opponents soft spots really fast , Obviously non of these moves are applicable and have been removed for sport application , How then could you judge it as ineffective when you've taken away the purpose it was originally used for like war or street fights .


    Okay- when learning to do a technique in martial arts, you learn to isolate the small details: bend your knees and straighten your spine; pull your knees together here; put their joint on the fulcrum here; etc. You focus on refining all of these details, but when you spar, you learn to simplify down as much as possible, so your brain can keep on the task at hand. When you hack down your perceptions into the broadest categories, I label it "principles". Big picture points, instead of minutiae.

    But how does one go about understanding principles?



    I like Matt Thornton's chess analogy:
    one approach to chess- learn how all the pieces move, then do choreographed routines that lead to predicted endgames, then reset the board and repeat.

    Another approach to chess- learn how all the pieces move, then play hundreds of games.

    which do you think would lead to a better understanding of the principles of chess? Which do you think would better prepare one to "create techniques on command at any time", to improvise and react?

    how do you suppose you'd alter the training method to accomplish this?
    What I mean by principle is the science behind what makes the technique works which is very similar to what you've mentioned , Like how takedowns are about the act of unbalancing an opponent's center of gravity (This is what I'm still studying now) , And elements like superior position , force & direction all together, Once one has already understood the way it works , And understood it practically , He'll be able to see openings for it because it's not something memorized like a technique , It's already understood because it's common sense , Like simply use all your force to direct the opponent to the ground is an example (Mentioned in the books Science of Takedowns), Going through many techniques seeing the principle within each , One is capable to come up with many variations all based on understanding instead of just memorizing one .

    Same goes to striking & all the others aspects , I loved how in Human weapon they used this whole Scientific principles demonstrated and it was very useful .

    This is what I'm trying to accomplish to myself , Simplify it down to these principles and then build on them rather than the opposite .


    Learning applied principles and learning techniques alone are both long, involved processes. One is not a shortcut.
    I'm not looking for shortcuts , I'm looking for understanding & simplicity , That's all , I'll take your advice as I move on and train and I will see how it goes , Thanks a lot =) .
  3. Rock Ape is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/25/2013 5:49pm

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    Posted On:
    1/25/2013 5:51pm

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  5. Rock Ape is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/25/2013 5:53pm

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    Posted On:
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    Posted On:
    1/25/2013 5:55pm

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  8. Detachment is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/25/2013 6:05pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Rock Ape View Post
    Just had a snotty PM from the OP.

    I moved this ****-filled thread from a place where it would have likely got **** canned. I said nothing, no infractions, no pithy comments about you being a NOOB or anything and I get a PM telling me I'm "Disrespectful" ?

    GO **** YOURSELF

    How's that for disrespect?

    Oh and welcome to the cesspoll.

    Twat.
    You've sent me this message :

    GREETINGS MISTER OR MISSES Detachment,

    Don't let your panties crawl up your crack, but for some reason following thread that you created has been moved

    ================================================== ===================================
    Thread: Dismantling the Fighting Arts - A Journal
    Original Forum: Basic and Misc. Fighting Technique Discussion
    New Forum: Newbietown
    ================================================== ===================================

    Either you posted this in the wrong section by accident, or your thread just sucks. If you have any questions, feel free to post them in the Support Forum.

    We promise to maybe read your question someday possibly Tuesday I think, not sure, but could be. Ok?

    Sincerely,
    The Bullshido Customer-Loving staff

    I've just noticed that you've sent me the same PM again , I don't know if you send this to all the people in the same way , But I still find it disrespectful and pride-filled especially when sending it for someone who is clueless about the website forums and still starting out , I've been a super-mod before on other forums and your attitude in such pm whether you wrote or whomever is immature .

    It's my habit to say the truth if you got sensitivity problems with that and you can't deal with it , Then feel free to ban me , I dun really care .

    And moving the thread to where you've did without even reading it and what it's about or even questioning it further shows that you're just abusing imaginary power upon those around to feel in control , Because you lack it , So you're fighting trolling by being a troll yourself , Good luck with that .
  9. Rock Ape is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/25/2013 6:14pm

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  10. Rock Ape is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/25/2013 6:17pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Detachment View Post
    you're just abusing imaginary power upon those around to feel in control , Because you lack it , So you're fighting trolling by being a troll yourself , Good luck with that .
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    "To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards out of men".

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