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  1. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    1/25/2013 3:17pm

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    3
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    When you say they're usually not that great and have a poor track record , You mean so in terms of what and where ?
    Valid question, but here's kind of a silly answer: anywhere that's both fair and open-ended. Seriously, you can take a venue as large as "anywhere" and plenty of arts have no evidence besides stories.

    I would say that I was once watching The Human Weapon Krav Maga episode and both in the beginning were asked to defend themselves in sparring against a knife attack and they both couldn't deal with any of the attacks in such a tight spot , Even though they studied many martial arts and one of them competed in MMA , This opened my eyes to the idea of greatness as in how effective it is in serious situations , Serious fight or flight situations deeply depend upon gross motor skills .
    Here's what really irked me about the Krav Maga Human Weapon episode- the padded attackers would continuously attack Doug and Jimmy no matter what they did, but when the KM instructor did it, the "attackers" would shell up after a light blow and stay that way while the instructor mocked some extra moves while yelling. They've added dust and footwork and screaming but I still saw a good amount of "playing along" for the teacher, because after months/years of training with people, you develop unspoken cues that a savy teacher can exploit.

    The reality of multiple opponents is something like this: two unarmed opponents is more than enough for most people; multiple opponents with weapons is nearly impossible to overcome without fleeing or superior weapons/allies.

    Recently, two of my senior training partners were testing for Guro (master) title, and I participated in the test as a feeder and a drummer. At the end, my teacher gestures me up and tells me to put on my sparring gear. Three of us, armed with sticks, took on the aspiring new masters, one of them at a time versus three of us. They'd both studied FMA for a decade, and one of them was a law enforcement trainer and aikido master, who could actually make aikido work! Wanna know what happened when we all squared off?

    We kicked their asses! And it was expected! As soon as they'd engage one of us, the others would either flank them and hit their head, or start whacking them in the legs. Fighting against 3 brains with 12 limbs and several hundred pounds of meat is a lot to take on.

    The thing that I learned from that was that multiple opponents with weapons is a bunch of chaos. So, if you really want to train for that kind of thing, there has to be some chaos in your training.
    If one is measuring effectiveness in of such a skill in a serious situation(That' my aim) , It would be measured in its ability in making you succeed in survival , And obviously your own training .
    But you're measuring it on an environment with no consistent parameters. Your survival environment and that of others are totally different, and survival is more than the sum of what you did or didn't do. The real world is full of forces bigger than martial arts training can account for. I don't blame arnis if I get hit by a car or killed by a gang of a dozen men with guns.

    If your facing only one person which rarely occurs , Many arts could be useful if one i trained in them to the point that fine motor skills have already turned into gross motor skills , Of course to reach such level of being able to use it , It could take years
    Fortunately there are martial arts that use gross motor skills.
    When I was real young I trained in Karate in a while and played Kumite and got a couple of belts , But I know pretty well that I could have gotten my ass whopped so many times because it was monkey see monkey do , I didn't understand much , And thugs around here are very violent .
    I'd say that even typical karate is a world apart when studied as an adult rather than a child. "I did some karate when I was a kid" is usually on par with "nothing", in my experience.

    Lets imagine a normal situation , Most of burglars usually are a band of two or three , Sometimes even more (I've known someone once facing 8 thugs stealing electricity wires which all had AK47s and were walking around with them normally) .
    3-8 thugs with automatic weapons is probably too big a task for martial arts alone.

    If you're facing 2 or 3 in a tight spot , With one or two having knives , Most of the techniques that we see in martial arts are completely useless and will do nothing but get you killed
    Alternative?

    I've done a krav maga drill where 2-3 guys zombie attack you with knives, and the objective is to keep them in a line or visual cone by using footwork. Without the cone/line, as soon as you engage one, the other will stab you in the back, and when you turn to face them, the other guy will stab you in the back, and so on until you die like a cartoon character. Problems:
    -in a tight space, you will not be able to establish the cone/line, because there's not enough room for the footwork.

    -its pretty easy to "die" in this drill even with lazy zombie attacks. Real-life sewing machine attacks? Very unlikely to survive unharmed.

    -krav maga, systema, etc drills with multiple attackers tend to have this lazy zombie attack style, or an overly restricted array of attacks.

    -being attacked by a good-sized group is often accompanied by missile weapons (bottles, bricks etc). Nearly no arts account for thrown weapons (sayoc and atienza kali styles do).
    Not including the heavy burden of being afraid of losing your own life , Which is something most are not trained in , This situation would make even those who are trained for years maybe even lose their lives in the fight .
    There are certainly stories of this happening, just as there are stories of people stepping up and disarming weapons etc. There was an aikidoka that took away a pistol with a wristlock not too long ago.

    What about worse situations , 7-8 thugs , Or even worse being inside a prison and having 10 or more around you trying to do you ?
    Then you'd better be a smooth talker or have a smooth...nevermind.

    What about Thugs with guns & shotguns..etc, Even one is not easy to deal with withou , I believe that this is a totally different story that I haven't seen any martial art deal with , I remember only seeing a movie "Equilibrium" where Christian Bale mastered a martial art that dealt with fire arms incredibly , I've never seen anything like it in real life !
    There is real-life firearms training, and it doesn't resemble Equilibrium because aesthetically pleasing kata moves aren't good for shooting and gunfighting doesn't tend to happen at high five range. Real gunfighting training is like MMA compared to chop socky movie fu.

    This is why I asked you , Because in the context of MMA fights , It's a totally different story .
    The thing is if these ultimate fighting systems really worked anywhere, they should work in the ring too, right? I mean, if krav/systema/etc guys are always losing in casual sparring matches and/or MMA fights it doesn't do much for their claims that it works on the battlefield, against multiple opponents. Yes, I know the argument about how the rules mean its not a real fight, but the real world is full of rules so its another example of whether or not the fighter can adapt.

    Would you please care to expand on this more ?
    Okay- when learning to do a technique in martial arts, you learn to isolate the small details: bend your knees and straighten your spine; pull your knees together here; put their joint on the fulcrum here; etc. You focus on refining all of these details, but when you spar, you learn to simplify down as much as possible, so your brain can keep on the task at hand. When you hack down your perceptions into the broadest categories, I label it "principles". Big picture points, instead of minutiae.

    This is just my outlook; others will use the same terms differently.

    I want to also say that I'm not saying that one should choose techniques instead of principles or vice versa , I meant that one should put the cart before the horse , As in understanding principles would make one capable of creating techniques on command at any time
    But how does one go about understanding principles? I like Matt Thornton's chess analogy:
    one approach to chess- learn how all the pieces move, then do choreographed routines that lead to predicted endgames, then reset the board and repeat.

    Another approach to chess- learn how all the pieces move, then play hundreds of games.

    which do you think would lead to a better understanding of the principles of chess? Which do you think would better prepare one to "create techniques on command at any time", to improvise and react?
    Which would make for a great foundation , Building on it , By studying any technique and seeing the principle in it , Would make the technique logical instantly thus cutting the time for using it 10 fold , And at the same time being capable of using such technique with many variation .
    how do you suppose you'd alter the training method to accomplish this?

    While in the case of learning a technique only , Without principles which are the foundation , It's monkey see monkey do and this is why it takes a lot of time to learn I would say .
    Learning applied principles and learning techniques alone are both long, involved processes. One is not a shortcut.
    Last edited by Permalost; 1/25/2013 3:25pm at .
  2. Detachment is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/25/2013 3:18pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You are facing a fundamental reality of violence: whoever brings more to the fight usually wins. The answer to a guy with a knife is a gun, the answer to eight guys with ak-47s is 30 guys with armored vehicles mounted with machine guns. The answer to two guys breaking into your house with knives might be two large dogs, you with a large club, and your wife protecting the kids with a knife. And hopefully your neighbors come to your aid. Martial arts do not get past this reality. Anyone who claims they can are typically lying or deluded.
    That is obvious , I'm not saying that this is what I'm after , I'm inquiring into the possibilities and the maximum effectiveness of a given art in different scenarios whether it's survive through fighting or escaping , My friend who faced the 8 thugs had another four with him and a shotgun , And he died after they exchanged fire and the others ran for their lives , So I know .

    Mate, you need to simplify.
    You seem to want answers to a wide variety of variables and scenarios. Pare it down.
    The physical side of SD is not the biggest part. If you wish to address it go to a school that has plenty of 'alive' training. This is pretty much the mantra on this site.

    The bold in the quote is true and motor skills (fine especially) will degrade in such situations..which is why alive training is a way forward in acclimatising to stress
    It's true that I just inquired into many possibilities , That is to be able to set up a measurement scale of what is effective versus useless in real-life situations , But you're right , And this is what I will be doing starting with only one simple scenario and seeing how far one could go .

    And what type of school would you suggest that would have a lot of alive training ?

    Huh???
    That situation was an exception (Very far-off almost deserted place with a rarity of any police units around) , As in that's not the norm , (Lately though because of the revolution it's become easier for thugs to have machine guns) , In actuality the crime rate around here is WAY lower than most of the countries , And like I said very safe even walking around at 2 am in the morning .

    If you can't run away your very likely fucked. Unless there's more of you than them and you out weapon them..even then your prob fucked..sounds like you should get in the army and be in the biggest fucking gang..dude seriously what are you asking here?
    Like I said the examples of scenarios above are merely for the stretching of a measurement scale of very light situations versus extremely dangerous situations to be able to truly measure the capability of an art in situations that truly matter with a goal of survival even if it's running , This is why I laid all these possibilities on the table .

    What you've said above again is the obvious , What most already know and assume , What I'm doing is inquiring and breaking martial arts down for what is useful to see the realistic possibilities and what could be applied through all the arts available to solve such problems from the beginning of such measurement scale to its extreme .

    Bottom-line , My own research in the subject through inquiry , And it's totally useless to approach it with my own conditioned thinking about what is possible and impossible or one wouldn't be able to discover anything new , This is why this all needs an open mind .

    Are you very young? You will NEVER see anything like it in real life..
    I'm tempted to call you a name but its not allowed in this forum.


    FORGET MOVIES.
    are you a teenager? you seem to be talking about fantasy. you come off like a well-off teenager with way too much time on your hands.

    martial arts are not going to save you in any of the situations you described. seriously, a bunch of guys with AK-47s? you're not going to defend yourself. 10 guys in prison who want to rape you? your ass is getting raped.

    don't watch so many movies.
    These are all light-heavy possibilities that could actually happen , I never said that the Martial arts could have a solution for every single one of these situations , On the contrary you both seem to know every single MA fully & precisely to be able to judge and thus you're already reacting that it's all impossible as if I said that it is possible in the first place .

    I know that I don't know , I'm not sure about you though .
  3. Ming Loyalist is offline
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    solves problems with violence

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    Posted On:
    1/25/2013 3:31pm

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     Style: Judo, Hung Family Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    detachment - how old are you? unless i missed it in one of your walls of text, you didn't answer.
    "Face punches are an essential character building part of a martial art. You don't truly love your children unless you allow them to get punched in the face." - chi-conspiricy
    "When I was a little boy, I had a sailor suit, but it didn't mean I was in the Navy." - Mtripp on the subject of a 5 year old karate black belt
    "Without actual qualifications to be a Zen teacher, your instructor is just another roundeye raping Asian culture for a buck." - Errant108
    "Seriously, who gives a **** what you or Errant think? You're Asian males, everyone just ignores you, unless you're in a krotty movie." - new2bjj
  4. mike321 is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/25/2013 3:39pm


     Style: kenpo, Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Dismantling the Fighting Arts - A Journal

    Sorry about your friend. Competitive based arts are still the best way to go. The only problem I have ever seen with competitive martial artists in a street scenario is taking time to feel out an opponent attacking might be more appropriate. In contrast, I have seen many more problems with training for "realistic" scenarios.
  5. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    1/25/2013 3:41pm

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    3
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Geez, I feel like I've just written a book about multiple opponents. A topic you couldn't pay me to write a book about.
  6. Resonance10 is online now
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    Welterweight

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    Posted On:
    1/25/2013 3:57pm

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     Style: Taiji/Hsingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That is to be able to set up a measurement scale of what is effective versus useless in real-life situations
    Many people with the right qualifications and tons of real life experience have done this kind of work already. What do you expect to bring to this area of research with your asking for opinions on the internet?
    How do you plan do measure these things?


    And what type of school would you suggest that would have a lot of alive training
    Boxing. Judo. BJJ. Muay Thai. MMA. SanShou. Wrestling arts..there are many but all these have to have alive training to be the arts they are.
    As Permalost has posted; look up Mat Thornton for a good intro to what is meant by 'aliveness'.

    On the contrary you both seem to know every single MA fully & precisely to be able to judge and thus you're already reacting that it's all impossible as if I said that it is possible in the first place .

    I know that I don't know , I'm not sure about you though .
    I have made no judgement on ANY MA. Your post however yes, I have made a judgement.
  7. Resonance10 is online now
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    Welterweight

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    Posted On:
    1/25/2013 3:58pm

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     Style: Taiji/Hsingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    Geez, I feel like I've just written a book about multiple opponents. A topic you couldn't pay me to write a book about.
    Lets hope he shows you some appreciation rather than the condescending passive aggressive tone so far shown.
  8. Rock Ape is offline
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    Watch and Shoot !

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    Posted On:
    1/25/2013 5:26pm

    staff
     

    4
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Just had a snotty PM from the OP.

    I moved this ****-filled thread from a place where it would have likely got **** canned. I said nothing, no infractions, no pithy comments about you being a NOOB or anything and I get a PM telling me I'm "Disrespectful" ?

    GO **** YOURSELF

    How's that for disrespect?

    Oh and welcome to the cesspoll.

    Twat.
    Last edited by Rock Ape; 1/25/2013 5:30pm at .
    "To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards out of men".

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  9. Omega Supreme is offline

    Administrator

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    Posted On:
    1/25/2013 5:32pm

    staff
     Style: Chinese Boxing

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ewwwwww, fight fight fight fight.
  10. Rock Ape is offline
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    Watch and Shoot !

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    Posted On:
    1/25/2013 5:34pm

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    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Supreme View Post
    Ewwwwww, fight fight fight fight.
    STFU Noob LOL
    "To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards out of men".

    ~Ella Wheeler
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