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  1. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/24/2013 4:02pm

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    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KravNoob View Post
    Exactly, I would add there are degrees of realism however, and I have yet to see unarmed vs armed get more real, it would likely require an unreasonable risk factor that any business simply cannot take
    Have fun gentleman, this is headed in full on silliness mode.
  2. franginho is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/24/2013 4:08pm


     Style: JiuJistu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sorry my friend but there are two options here:
    1) you guys have been pushing your luck for a long time and are going to run out
    2) you are fooling yourselves in terms of "what is a real attack" etc.

    Here is why:
    I have trained a bit of MA (most likely not as much as most folks here) but i have been around. I have seen people with 20+ years in their art, training, doing demos etc. and perform techniques they know in their sleep. Yet they **** up eventually! It is not because they are not good or anything but because they are fucking human.
    So doing your drills with a live blade is darn stupid and quite honestly dangerous not only for your trainer but you as well (not sure if you happened to think about that).
    Yes, it might brings you some "real" but I can think of a lot of drills/ideas you could do in order to add more "real" without adding the risk.
    For instance:
    Cross train, have people from other styles come in and perform the attacks/defense, add new elements to training that usually doesn't have them (i.e. adding weapons to grappling for the Judo/JJ folk) heck even the Krav has (AFAIK) some nice ideas (add noise, reduce space, sensor capabilities, Range of motion).

    Once more, you are either not doing it full on or you are pushing your luck or both!
  3. KravNoob is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/24/2013 4:16pm


     Style: Krav Maga

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by franginho View Post
    Sorry my friend but there are two options here:
    1) you guys have been pushing your luck for a long time and are going to run out
    2) you are fooling yourselves in terms of "what is a real attack" etc.

    Here is why:
    I have trained a bit of MA (most likely not as much as most folks here) but i have been around. I have seen people with 20+ years in their art, training, doing demos etc. and perform techniques they know in their sleep. Yet they **** up eventually! It is not because they are not good or anything but because they are fucking human.
    So doing your drills with a live blade is darn stupid and quite honestly dangerous not only for your trainer but you as well (not sure if you happened to think about that).
    Yes, it might brings you some "real" but I can think of a lot of drills/ideas you could do in order to add more "real" without adding the risk.
    For instance:
    Cross train, have people from other styles come in and perform the attacks/defense, add new elements to training that usually doesn't have them (i.e. adding weapons to grappling for the Judo/JJ folk) heck even the Krav has (AFAIK) some nice ideas (add noise, reduce space, sensor capabilities, Range of motion).

    Once more, you are either not doing it full on or you are pushing your luck or both!
    which part about "the real blade is used for demo, the drills are done with stunt knives" was unclear exactly?

    not meant to be antagonizing at all btw, just clarifying, wholeheartedly agree drilling with a real knife would be stupid and dangerous, but that is not what I claimed?

    and yes, other perspectives are immensely valuable and we are lucky to have some of those in the class regularly
    Last edited by KravNoob; 4/24/2013 4:18pm at . Reason: typo :(
  4. franginho is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/24/2013 4:28pm


     Style: JiuJistu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Why are you using the word demo as opposed to drill when you say the thing was a full force attack? Please tell me how those two differ?
    Demo is for show, scripted and usually compliant.
    Drill is doing the technique with varying degree of force/speed/resistance.
    Which one was it?
  5. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    4/24/2013 4:41pm

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Giving someone a live blade for a knife defense demo is actually more likely to make them be careful and avoid accidentally cutting you, which is not at all how a real knife attack happens. Its like doing those gun disarms with live guns- the "attacker" won't really shoot someone with a real gun for the sake of training, but they would shoot them with an airsoft bullet. I will do all I can to stab the hell out of my training partner with a rubber knife, but give me a live blade and I'll throw attacks too wide, too slow, and pull them well before contact if I don't think they'll defend in time.

    Telling someone to attack "full power" with a knife actually primes them to attack with an easier-to-deal-with attack, in my opinion: a dramatic, full body english thrust or icepick stab is the easiest knife attack to defend against; a quick retracting flick is the hardest. Just like a jab vs a haymaker.

    I should also mention that edged weapons will **** you up in the blink of an eye. I've seen FMA guys accidentally cut themselves during demos (one with a bolo and one with a balisong). They tend to bleed and drip before anyone has a chance to do anything. Using them for live training is foolish.
    Last edited by Permalost; 4/24/2013 4:45pm at .
  6. KravNoob is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/24/2013 4:44pm


     Style: Krav Maga

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by franginho View Post
    Why are you using the word demo as opposed to drill when you say the thing was a full force attack? Please tell me how those two differ?
    Demo is for show, scripted and usually compliant.
    Drill is doing the technique with varying degree of force/speed/resistance.
    Which one was it?
    demo = real blade, instructor is the defender, attacker is unscripted student
    drill = fake blade, another student is the defender, attacker is unscripted student

    in both cases force / speed / resistance is unlimited
    in both cases the angle of attack or the specific style of attack is limited in terms of being the thing / technique you are trying to defend against, at least the first move that is

    so when i say unscripted i mean while you initially attack with a predetermined technique, nothing else is "scripted", in my case i specifically tried to change the angle of the knife hand and cut in strange angles after it had been caught, and it was caught given that the initial attack was a specific predetermined technique, with force etc not predetermined, but going full on in terms of speed and force

    and with this definition of demo vs drill I'll add 99% of what happens in class are "drills", the "demo" is the exception used to reinforce a concept, an exception by virtue of the fact that as you all point out, it introduces quite a bit of risk

    logically there is a balance to strike between how many students you wish to maim / kill and how real you want the class to be for the lucky survivors

    I'd be genuinely interested to hear of a place that strikes this balance significantly better
  7. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    4/24/2013 4:47pm

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KravNoob View Post
    so when i say unscripted i mean while you initially attack with a predetermined technique, nothing else is "scripted"
    What else is there? That's like saying a show's not scripted except for the dialogue.
  8. KravNoob is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/24/2013 4:49pm


     Style: Krav Maga

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    Giving someone a live blade for a knife defense demo is actually more likely to make them be careful and avoid accidentally cutting you, which is not at all how a real knife attack happens. Its like doing those gun disarms with live guns- the "attacker" won't really shoot someone with a real gun for the sake of training, but they would shoot them with an airsoft bullet. I will do all I can to stab the hell out of my training partner with a rubber knife, but give me a live blade and I'll throw attacks too wide, too slow, and pull them well before contact if I don't think they'll defend in time.

    Telling someone to attack "full power" with a knife actually primes them to attack with an easier-to-deal-with attack, in my opinion: a dramatic, full body english thrust or icepick stab is the easiest knife attack to defend against; a quick retracting flick is the hardest. Just like a jab vs a haymaker.

    I should also mention that edged weapons will **** you up in the blink of an eye. I've seen FMA guys accidentally cut themselves during demos (one with a bolo and one with a balisong). They tend to bleed and drip before anyone has a chance to do anything. Using them for live training is foolish.
    Permalost, I honestly have no counter argument here, you state very fair and considered observations, upon reflection in my case even I can add maybe there is a mindset issue

    I was specifically focused and determined to cut the guy once caught, because at the time that was actually the question I posed to him

    That bit I am confident was as forceful as I at least can muster, could I have done the initial attack faster and more forceful? Hell, maybe yes, at the time I'd have said no though
  9. KravNoob is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/24/2013 4:56pm


     Style: Krav Maga

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    What else is there? That's like saying a show's not scripted except for the dialogue.
    Touche, but I'd say it is more like saying an impromptu stage performance where the show has a well known name like e.g. Hamlet, is unscripted if the actors have no lines after the prelude and they don't know each other too well

    Again it is a risk vs realism balancing act, this thread has plenty of arguments for either side, but few that admit there is a balance to strike?

    I'm essentially saying it is as real and as unscripted as a reasonable risk factor allows, while it may seem contradictory to previous posts, even after a fresh re-read, I say it is not

    If I say it is 100% real, the naysayers will jump on the "bs that is dangerous and too risky" boat

    If I say it is as real as possible, the other group of naysayers jump on the "come on it is either real or not" boat

    sadly no option in any style exists AFAIK that can satisfy both of those, it is a logical fallacy
    Last edited by KravNoob; 4/24/2013 4:57pm at . Reason: late night, grammar failure
  10. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    4/24/2013 5:05pm

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KravNoob View Post
    Permalost, I honestly have no counter argument here, you state very fair and considered observations, upon reflection in my case even I can add maybe there is a mindset issue
    I'd say its mostly a mindset issue- if you're not a psychopath you won't injure your teacher with a knife.

    Specifically, the injuries I'm talking about are defensive injuries- cuts to the arms of a defending person. As soon as you see a block, there's often enough time to stop short and cut their arm, but there's not enough time to register this as the defender and change tactics.

    I was specifically focused and determined to cut the guy once caught, because at the time that was actually the question I posed to him
    Once caught? Does this mean he had your arm caught in a control position and asked if you could flail out of it? Cause the simple solution is to switch hands, not insist on freeing the caught one.

    That bit I am confident was as forceful as I at least can muster, could I have done the initial attack faster and more forceful? Hell, maybe yes, at the time I'd have said no though
    Its easier to disarm someone using a knife like a hammer than it is trying to disarm someone using a knife like a paintbrush.

    Have you ever seen TMA demos where the sensei/sifu/whatever demonstrates parlor tricks by asking a big strong guy to resist their minor efforts, but are unable? This is because they're using superior position and mental/verbal cues to get the guy into a losing proposition by guiding exactly what they will do. Good showmen are able to do this with body language and suggestion too, making them act in the "wrong" way without even realizing. I think these principles come into play here too.
    Last edited by Permalost; 4/24/2013 5:13pm at .
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