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  1. submessenger is offline
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    Transmaniacon MC

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    Posted On:
    1/11/2013 10:27am

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     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    (dup)
    Last edited by submessenger; 1/11/2013 10:52am at .
  2. submessenger is offline
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    Transmaniacon MC

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    Posted On:
    1/11/2013 10:28am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm curious how you get from this:
    Quote Originally Posted by patfromlogan View Post
    Oh though it's politically non-viable, I'm totally against all-volunteer, that's one of the reasons there so much PTSD and suicides - a tiny group does tour after tour. And I think that is one of the contributing factors to US willingness to go to war. So few suffer; most people don't have any connection to the wars. I'm for a national draft with no exclusions for anyone.
    To this:
    Quote Originally Posted by patfromlogan View Post
    My statement about universal service has nothing to do with PTSD
  3. patfromlogan is offline
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    Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    1/11/2013 12:11pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by cereus View Post
    I, for one look forward to the 101st blind airborne with their specially trained guide dogs. The 5th wheelchair artillery. Perhaps this will give a new meaning to special forces?
    Jobs based on merit make sense. Straw man.
    "Preparing mentally, the most important thing is, if you aren't doing it for the love of it, then don't do it." - Benny Urquidez
  4. patfromlogan is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/11/2013 8:00pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by mike321 View Post
    http://www.freakonomics.com/2008/09/...ilitary-today/

    WRONG!

    Vietnam era is not the whole US experience. The Vietnam generation made it clear to my generation the antics that went on with regards to the draft and assignments so I do not doubt the abuses that went in in that time. However, the military today is very diverse.
    Yes, there's been a big push for diversity, but for the leaders it's a different story. The point being racial diversity does not equal economic diversity. The rich don't serve.

    Prominent Republicans

    Representative Patrick McHenry, R-NC - did not serve. Saw fit to endanger American troops' lives after a visit to Iraq by violating operational security and helping militias target their mortar attacks on the Green Zone.
    Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-KY - did not serve (1)
    Senate Assistant Minority Leader Trent Lott, R-MI - avoided the draft, did not serve.
    Senate Republican Conference Chairman Jon Kyl, R-AZ - did not serve.
    Senate Republican Conference Vice Chair John Cornyn, R-TX - did not serve.
    National Republican Senatorial Committee Chair John Ensign, R-NV - did not serve.

    House Minority Leader John Boehner, R-OH - did not serve.
    House Minority Whip Roy Blunt, R-MO - did not serve.
    House Republican Conerence Chair Adam Putnam, R-FL - did not serve.
    House Republican Policy Committee Thaddeus McCotter, R-MI - did not serve.
    National Republican Congressional Committee Chair Tom Cole, R-OK - did not serve.

    Former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani - did not serve.
    Former Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney - did not serve in the military but did serve the Mormon Church on a 30-month mission to France.
    Former Senator Fred Thompson - did not serve.
    Former Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert - avoided the draft, did not serve.
    Former House Majority Leader Dick Armey - avoided the draft, did not serve.
    Former House Majority Leader Tom Delay - avoided the draft, did not serve (1). "So many minority youths had volunteered ... that there was literally no room for patriotic folks like himself."
    Former House Majority Whip Roy Blunt - did not serve
    Former Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist - did not serve.
    Rick Santorum, R-PA, formerly third ranking Republican in the Senate - did not serve. George Felix Allen, former Republican Senator from Virginia - a supporter of Nixon and the Vietnam war, did not serve.
    Former Secretary of Defense Don Rumsfeld - served in the U.S. Navy (1954-57) as an aviator and flight instructor. (1) Served as President Reagan's Special Envoy to the Middle East and met with Saddam Hussein twice in 1983 and 1984. Never saw any combat.
    GW Bush - decided that a six-year Nat'l Guard commitment really means four years, goofed off and took drugs. Says that he's "been to war." Liar.
    VP Cheney - several deferments -the last by marriage (in his own words, "had other priorities than military service")
    Former Att'y Gen. John Ashcroft - did not serve; received seven deferment to teach business ed at SW Missouri State
    Jeb Bush, Florida Governor - did not serve.
    Karl Rove - avoided the draft, did not serve
    Former Speaker Newt Gingrich - avoided the draft, did not serve
    Former President Ronald Reagan - made movies for the Army
    "B-1" Bob Dornan - avoided Korean War combat duty by enrolling in college acting classes (Orange County Weekly article). Enlisted only after the fighting was over in Korea.
    Phil Gramm - avoided the draft, did not serve, four (?) student deferments

    The few Republicans who served:
    Congressman Ron Paul - active duty flight surgeon from 1963-65; Air National Guard from 1965-68.
    Former Senator Bob Dole - an honorable man.
    Chuck Hagel - two Purple Hearts and a Bronze Star, Vietnam.
    Duke Cunningham - nominated for the Medal of Honor, received the Navy Cross, two Silver Stars, fifteen Air Medals, the Purple Heart,
    Senator Jeff Sessions U.S. Army Reserves, 1973-1986
    Colin Powell of course
    Representative Wayne Gilchrest (R-MD), served in USMC in Vietnam; wounded in action.

    Democrats have a much better rep for service


    Senator Jim Webb (D-VA) -- rifle platoon and company commander with the Fifth Marine Regiment in the An Hoa Basin west of Danang; was awarded the Navy Cross, the Silver Star Medal, two Bronze Star Medals, and two Purple Hearts.
    Representative Tim Walz, D-MN - Twenty-four years of service in the Army National Guard, retiring in 2005.
    Representative Joe Sestak, D-PA - 31 years of service in the Navy, rising to the rank of Vice Admiral.
    Representative Chris Carney, D-PA - Lieutenant Commander in the United States Naval Reserve, multiple tours overseas and was activated for Operation Enduring Freedom, Noble Eagle, and Southern Watch.
    Representative Patrick Murphy, D-PA - U.S. Army from 1993-2004; earned Bronze Star and Presidential Unit Citation.
    Representative Phil Hare, D-IL - Served in the United States Army Reserve for six years.
    Representative Jack Murtha (D-PA) - distinguished 37-year career in the U.S. Marine Corps, Bronze Star and two Purple Hearts, retired from the Marine Corps Reserve as a colonel in 1990.
    Former House Minority Leader Richard Gephardt - Missouri Air National Guard, 1965-71
    Representative David Bonior - Staff Sgt., United States Air Force 1968-72
    Former Senate Minority Leader Tom Daschle - 1st Lt., U.S. Air Force SAC 1969-72
    Former Vice President Al Gore - Army, reporter in Vietnam
    Former Senator Bob Kerrey... Democrat... Lt. j.g., U.S. Navy 1966-69; Medal of Honor Vietnam
    Senator Daniel Inouye, US Army 1943-'47; Medal of Honor, World War Two Italy
    Senator John Kerry, Lt., U.S. Navy 1966-70; Silver Star, Bronze Star with Combat V, and three awards of the Purple Heart for his service in combat
    Former Representative Charles Rangel, Staff Sgt., U.S. Army 1948-52; Bronze Star, Korea
    Former Senator Max Cleland, Captain, U.S. Army 1965-68; Silver Star & Bronze Star, Vietnam (1, 2)
    Senator Chris Dodd (D-CT) - U.S. Army Reserve, 1968-1975.
    Former Senator Ted Kennedy (D-MA) - U.S. Army, 1951-1953.
    Senator Tom Harkin (D-IA) - Lt., U.S. Navy, 1962-67; Naval Reserve, 1968-74.
    Senator Jack Reed (D-RI) - U.S. Army Ranger, 1971-1979; Captain, Army Reserve 1979-91
    Former Senator Fritz Hollings (D-SC) - served as a U.S. Army officer in World War II, receiving the Bronze Star and seven campaign ribbons.
    Representative Leonard Boswell (D-IA) - Lt. Col., U.S. Army 1956-76; two tours in Vietnam, two Distinguished Flying Crosses as a helicopter pilot, two Bronze Stars, and the Soldier's Medal. (1, 2)
    Former Representative "Pete" Peterson, Air Force Captain, POW, Ambassador to Viet Nam, and recipient of the Purple Heart, the Silver Star and the Legion of Merit. (1, 2)
    Rep. Mike Thompson, D-CA: Staff sergeant/platoon leader with the 173rd Airborne Brigade, U.S. Army; was wounded and received a Purple Heart. (1, 2)
    Bill McBride, Democratic Candidate for Florida Governor - volunteered and served as a U.S. Marine in Vietnam; awarded Bronze Star with a combat "V."
    Gray Davis, former California Governor, Army Captain in Vietnam; received Bronze Star.
    Pete Stark, D-CA, served in the Air Force 1955-57
    Wesley Clark, Democratic Presidential Candidate - 38-year career of public service in the Army, culminating as Supreme Allied Commander of NATO.
    "Preparing mentally, the most important thing is, if you aren't doing it for the love of it, then don't do it." - Benny Urquidez
  5. mike321 is online now

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    Posted On:
    1/11/2013 9:59pm


     Style: kenpo, Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    NRA and suicide

    Quote Originally Posted by patfromlogan View Post
    Yes, there's been a big push for diversity, but for the leaders it's a different story. The point being racial diversity does not equal economic diversity. The rich don't serve.
    This is not true! YOU just proved it. Unless being Democrat makes you honorary poor! Many of those dems came from families of means and served! Some came from powerful families! When I say diverse I don't mean just race. It is also background and wealth.
  6. Vorpal is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/12/2013 1:16pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by patfromlogan View Post
    Vorpal, are you sure of your thinking? You including MANY respected US Army personnel and for that matter, including many US police organizations (rank and file are all for permits to carry, but are not for being out gunned by criminals and crazies).

    General Peter Chiarelli has an agenda? Yeah, it's helping soldiers with brain injuries...

    Gabrielle Giffords and Jim Brady have an agenda? Yeah, it's keeping crazy people like the ones that shot them from getting guns.

    I wish people would watch the best news commentators in America (and Jon and Steve do say that that is very sad).

    http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tu...playershare_fb
    Am I sure in my thinking that this is yet another angle of attack against civillian gun ownership? Let me check the thread title.

    Yes, I'm sure.

    Being purposefully obtuse in order to advance an agenda is beneath you. Stop.

    Oh, and the Daily Show? News? Really?
  7. Vieux Normand is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/12/2013 4:00pm

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     Style: 血鷲

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Umm...France had conscription until 2001, and young people are still obliged to register in case there's a perceived necessity for its reimplementation.

    Ya really wanna be like France?
  8. crappler is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/12/2013 8:13pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It's pretty amazing the lengths people will go to to find evidence to back up their already constructed conclusion about something. Thus far only two posts really need to be read here. The first one, and the post which describes the well-documented and well-known studies that show states with higher rates of private firearm possession correlate directly with higher rates of suicide.

    Simply put, the firearm lends itself very well to impulsive acts, and suicide is very often an impulsive act. People with documented serious mental illness, caused by PTSD or otherwise, should not have access to firearms. If you don't think that is a problem that can be fixed, thanks for your help and go F&*k yourself.
    "We often joke -- and we really wish it were a joke -- that you will only encounter two basic problems with your 'self-defense' training.
    1) That it doesn't work
    2) That it does work"
    -Animal MacYoung
  9. mike321 is online now

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    Posted On:
    1/12/2013 10:15pm


     Style: kenpo, Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    NRA and suicide

    Crappler,

    I completely agree on keeping firearms away to help prevent suicides. But... How do you address the freedom issue and the mental health stigma issue? Is taking firearms away more important than encouraging people to get help and to be open with mental health professionals?
  10. Devil is offline
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    His heart was visible, and the dismal sack that maketh excrement of what is eaten.

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    Posted On:
    1/13/2013 2:49am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by crappler View Post
    It's pretty amazing the lengths people will go to to find evidence to back up their already constructed conclusion about something. Thus far only two posts really need to be read here. The first one, and the post which describes the well-documented and well-known studies that show states with higher rates of private firearm possession correlate directly with higher rates of suicide.

    Simply put, the firearm lends itself very well to impulsive acts, and suicide is very often an impulsive act. People with documented serious mental illness, caused by PTSD or otherwise, should not have access to firearms. If you don't think that is a problem that can be fixed, thanks for your help and go F&*k yourself.
    Either that, or you're a homo. Since I'm risk averse, I think I'll play it safe and go with the homo theory.
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