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  1. Diesel_tke is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/10/2013 9:25am

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    Quote Originally Posted by mike321 View Post
    This line of reasoning does not hold up historically. Drafts did not stop ww1 ww2 Korea or Vietnam. The Elite have a long history of putting their kids in harms way. Some even did it for political advantage.
    The main reason it doesn't hold up well, is because politicians just use their influence to get their kids assigned to better posts or do what Romney did and go to Europe for a "religious" mission. They know the loop holes and don't mind exploiting them.
    Combatives training log.

    Gezere: paraphrase from Bas Rutten, Never escalate the level of violence in fight you are losing. :D

    Drum thread

    Pavel Tsatsouline: kettlebell workouts give you “cardio without the dishonour of aerobics”.
  2. mike321 is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/10/2013 10:56am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    NRA and suicide

    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel_tke View Post
    The main reason it doesn't hold up well, is because politicians just use their influence to get their kids assigned to better posts or do what Romney did and go to Europe for a "religious" mission. They know the loop holes and don't mind exploiting them.
    Or let your son serve as a commando after he completes his diplomatic mission: Roosevelt. Or make sure your sons don't miss the war: Kennedys.
  3. Diesel_tke is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/10/2013 11:23am

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    Quote Originally Posted by mike321 View Post
    Or let your son serve as a commando after he completes his diplomatic mission: Roosevelt. Or make sure your sons don't miss the war: Kennedys.
    They don't make them like they used to.
    Combatives training log.

    Gezere: paraphrase from Bas Rutten, Never escalate the level of violence in fight you are losing. :D

    Drum thread

    Pavel Tsatsouline: kettlebell workouts give you “cardio without the dishonour of aerobics”.
  4. patfromlogan is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/10/2013 1:25pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by submessenger View Post
    So, you think PTSD would have a lower incidence rate among people that were *forced* to do Our Will than those that choose to do so? I'm not a shrink, but to me it seems the opposite effect would be the case.
    My statement about universal service has nothing to do with PTSD, and nothing to do with my stance that the law restricting military health care officials is harmful. "I am not allowed to ask a soldier who lives off post whether that soldier has a privately owned weapon," was made by the #2 Army commander.
    Quote Originally Posted by submessenger View Post
    If you're really concerned about the troop levels, some things to do right off the bat would be:
    1) Honestly support the troops - none of this "I support the troops but not the mission," crap.
    This makes absolutely no sense. I can see the reasons for our longest war ever, Afghanistan. If the US had not invaded Iraq and concentrated our efforts in Afghanistan I could understand supporting that effort. To say one shouldn't criticize the mission is un-American. It is a fascist attribute. Specially silly looking at Iraq invasion. Worst foreign policy decision in the history of the US. Blundering stupidity by egomaniac neo-con ****-wits. Before the war the Middle East saw us as partly beneficial, despite our support of dictators and Israel. Now they see us as moronic aggressive hypocrites - we supported Baath for over 20 years, gave Iraq aid - then invaded? To say nothing of the enormous strengthening of power the war gave Iran, upsetting the balance of power and so forth and so on. To say nothing of other idiotic wars like Vietnam. Why the **** should I support a mission that has killed 4500 US soldiers? I'm not a fascist. In America it is patriotic to question policy.
    Quote Originally Posted by submessenger View Post
    2) Along the same lines, don't support any reduction in military funding.
    3) Increase benefits and pay.
    4) Similarly, exempt active duty from income tax at the local, state, and federal levels.
    I would certainly want the military to get paid as well as the private military contractors (can't be called mercenaries as mercenaries are against international law), but perhaps if the US didn't make idiotic wars, we wouldn't have to be spending more on the military than the next fifteen countries budgets combined.

    Quote Originally Posted by mike321 View Post
    This line of reasoning does not hold up historically. Drafts did not stop ww1 ww2 Korea or Vietnam. The Elite have a long history of putting their kids in harms way. Some even did it for political advantage.
    Used to do that, back in WWII days. But: "I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well-placed managed to wangle slots in Reserve and National Guard units. Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country." - Colin Powell. This is from his autobiography and was in the Washington Post as part of an article about Powell being questioned about Bush going AWOL from his (ha ha) service in the National Guard.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vorpal View Post
    If we as a populace allow ourselves to be disarmed we will find our remaining rights exist at the whim of people who worked tirelessly to strip us of our most fundamental and essential right. Not somewhere I want to be.
    "Allowing a populace to be disarmed," has very very to do with military health workers trying to prevent vets shooting themselves.
    Last edited by patfromlogan; 1/10/2013 1:28pm at .
    "Preparing mentally, the most important thing is, if you aren't doing it for the love of it, then don't do it." - Benny Urquidez
  5. Diesel_tke is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/10/2013 1:33pm

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    I thought this article was somewhat relevant to the discussion of what happens when someone commits suicide but doesn't have a gun sitting around:

    http://www.freep.com/article/2013010...on-way-to-work

    police say he first tried to end his life by jumping out of a moving vehicle that was driving him to work in Canonsburg, about 15 miles south of Pittsburgh. That happened about 7:45 a.m. Tuesday.


    About a half hour later, police say the man stepped over a guide rail into the path of a tractor-trailer which tried to avoid the man but knocked him out of his shoes.


    Troopers from the Washington barracks say the man jumped up, grabbed his shoes, slid down a hillside and walked to work. He was since been flown to a Pittsburgh hospital.

    I guess you could argue that if that guy had a gun, he would be dead. As it is, he may get another chance. Then again, he may jump out of the window at the hospital!
    Combatives training log.

    Gezere: paraphrase from Bas Rutten, Never escalate the level of violence in fight you are losing. :D

    Drum thread

    Pavel Tsatsouline: kettlebell workouts give you “cardio without the dishonour of aerobics”.
  6. Vorpal is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/10/2013 2:18pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by patfromlogan View Post
    ."Allowing a populace to be disarmed," has very very to do with military health workers trying to prevent vets shooting themselves.
    All these efforts and excuses to infringe on and chip away at our essential freedoms should be recognized as such and treated accordingly. I really don't believe that the people raising this issue care one iota about soldiers or their welfare. They have an agenda.
  7. Vieux Normand is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/10/2013 2:31pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel_tke View Post
    I thought this article was somewhat relevant to the discussion of what happens when someone commits suicide but doesn't have a gun sitting around:

    http://www.freep.com/article/2013010...on-way-to-work




    I guess you could argue that if that guy had a gun, he would be dead. As it is, he may get another chance. Then again, he may jump out of the window at the hospital!
    Anti-suicide sites like to point out the ****-ups who partially destroy themselves with guns, without actually dying, in an attempt to dissuade people from suicide. For the same reason, they'll go over the various and sundry messy-but-not fatal results of self-poisoning or unsuccessful self-cutting.

    The one dissuasion-attempt I don't understand on such sites is the one where they claim that people jumping from great heights "change their minds halfway down".

    How, exactly, this change-of-heart is established is never explained.
  8. patfromlogan is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/10/2013 8:08pm

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    Vorpal, are you sure of your thinking? You including MANY respected US Army personnel and for that matter, including many US police organizations (rank and file are all for permits to carry, but are not for being out gunned by criminals and crazies).

    General Peter Chiarelli has an agenda? Yeah, it's helping soldiers with brain injuries...

    Gabrielle Giffords and Jim Brady have an agenda? Yeah, it's keeping crazy people like the ones that shot them from getting guns.

    I wish people would watch the best news commentators in America (and Jon and Steve do say that that is very sad).

    http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tu...playershare_fb
    Last edited by patfromlogan; 1/10/2013 8:16pm at .
    "Preparing mentally, the most important thing is, if you aren't doing it for the love of it, then don't do it." - Benny Urquidez
  9. mike321 is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/11/2013 12:26am


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    NRA and suicide

    Quote Originally Posted by patfromlogan View Post

    Used to do that, back in WWII days. But: "I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well-placed managed to wangle slots in Reserve and National Guard units. Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country." - Colin Powell. This is from his autobiography and was in the Washington Post as part of an article about Powell being questioned about Bush going AWOL from his (ha ha) service in the National Guard."Allowing a populace to be disarmed," has very very to do with military health workers trying to prevent vets shooting themselves.
    http://www.freakonomics.com/2008/09/...ilitary-today/

    WRONG!

    Vietnam era is not the whole US experience. The Vietnam generation made it clear to my generation the antics that went on with regards to the draft and assignments so I do not doubt the abuses that went in in that time. However, the military today is very diverse.
  10. cereus is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/11/2013 4:07am


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by patfromlogan View Post
    I'm for a national draft with no exclusions for anyone.
    I, for one look forward to the 101st blind airborne with their specially trained guide dogs. The 5th wheelchair artillery. Perhaps this will give a new meaning to special forces?
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