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  1. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/08/2013 4:17pm

    Join us... or die
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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Hardon View Post
    Hopefully you will never find yourself in such a position but, if misfortune should seemingly strike out of nowhere and you pull through, please share your experience rather than what you are currently presuming.
    If you're genuinely suicidal, indeed, even if you're someone 'making a cry for help', you will have thought about suicide at length and about the 'best' way to commit it.

    People who commit suicide tend not to do it out of nowhere, with no reason and no prior for thought.

    They do it because of a long and difficult struggle with whatever it is they're dealing with and with many pre-suicide thoughts about how and when the might kill themselves.

    People who have thought about suicide are certain to have thought about the 'best' way of doing it. You sound like you're arguing that, that doesn't happen and that people just suddenly, out of nowhere, with no prior thought, kill themselves?

    Do you really believe that to be common?
  2. submessenger is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/08/2013 4:33pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by patfromlogan View Post
    While no one would say that the NRA encourages suicide, their acitons have had that affect. The NRA officials have gone far from the views of the majority of their members, even fighting for the rights of Terrorist Watch List members to buy guns - 3/4ths of their membership disagree. The NRA has last year pushed through a law with terrible consequences. Intended to protect rights, it has prevented the armed service mental health professionals from intervening to remove guns, or for that matter, even to ask about gun possession. The ability of the armed forces to deal effectively has been severally curtailed by a rights bill promoted by the NRA. The consequences of this law are unconscionable. It should be repealed. The law forbids commanders from being able to “collect or record any information” about private firearms owned by US troops living off base - unless a soldier states that he intends to harm with his private firearms.

    Suicide is the most frequent cause of death among Army forces, surpassing combat deaths and motor vehicle accidents, according to Gen. Raymond Odierno, the Army chief of staff. From 2004 to 2009, the suicide rate within the force doubled.

    Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta, "That is an epidemic, something is wrong."



    “I am not allowed to ask a soldier who lives off post whether that soldier has a privately owned weapon,” Gen. Peter Chiarelli, The Army’s No. 2 officer. Chiarelli is lamenting the law,Sec 1062, that the NRA successfully backed:


    "To protect privacy and Second Amendment rights of military personnel, their families, and other DOD personnel: Section 1062 of the Act prohibits the Secretary of Defense from issuing any requirement, or collecting or recording any information, “relating to the otherwise lawful acquisition, possession, ownership, carrying, or other use of a privately owned firearm, privately owned ammunition, or another privately owned weapon by a member of the Armed Forces or civilian employee of the Department of Defense” on property not owned or operated by the DOD. It also requires, within 90 days, the destruction of any information of the type prohibited by the Act."

    http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Militar...g-with-the-NRA
    If you're arguing that active duty military members should have less protection under the Constitution, I'm going to have to disagree. That would have a chilling effect on enrollment, which would undermine our ability to maintain an all-volunteer force, such as we have now.
  3. Devil is online now
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    Posted On:
    1/08/2013 4:45pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Military personnel don't need the government to "protect" them in the ass anymore than the rest of us do.
  4. patfromlogan is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/08/2013 7:57pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by submessenger View Post
    If you're arguing that active duty military members should have less protection under the Constitution, I'm going to have to disagree. That would have a chilling effect on enrollment, which would undermine our ability to maintain an all-volunteer force, such as we have now.
    Oh though it's politically non-viable, I'm totally against all-volunteer, that's one of the reasons there so much PTSD and suicides - a tiny group does tour after tour. And I think that is one of the contributing factors to US willingness to go to war. So few suffer; most people don't have any connection to the wars. I'm for a national draft with no exclusions for anyone.

    I see the points made. But the system has failed. And has been failing for a long time. Most of the suicides are booze and gun combos, according to the reports. I think Army commanders and shrinks being able to ask about gun ownership is reasonable. But this is just a tiny part of a huge issue.
    "Preparing mentally, the most important thing is, if you aren't doing it for the love of it, then don't do it." - Benny Urquidez
  5. Devil is online now
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    Posted On:
    1/08/2013 8:18pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by patfromlogan View Post
    I'm for a national draft with no exclusions for anyone.
    You have now captured my curiosity. Say more words about this.
  6. patfromlogan is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/09/2013 4:53pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Oh, the usual reasons, shared responsibility, fairness, duty - I'm against priviledge. I do admire the ideals of democracy and meritocracy.

    And if the Chicken Hawks' children were on the line, and everyone else's children were liable to be put in harms way, they might be more reluctant to make war. They would certainly have to turn up the propaganda machine.*

    It is so obvious that so few are asked to do so much.
    http://abcnews.go.com/US/army-ranger...ry?id=14811227
    (yes I know Rangers deployments don't equal tours of duty - but they are intense).
    or my renter Sgt. Robert X, four tours, brain lesions, still active duty and permanent brain injuries and dealing with PTSD
    or http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...312&highlight=


    *http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/3350...war-why-should
    "Preparing mentally, the most important thing is, if you aren't doing it for the love of it, then don't do it." - Benny Urquidez
  7. Devil is online now
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    Posted On:
    1/09/2013 5:05pm

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    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by patfromlogan View Post
    Oh, the usual reasons, shared responsibility, fairness, duty - I'm against priviledge. I do admire the ideals of democracy and meritocracy.

    And if the Chicken Hawks' children were on the line, and everyone else's children were liable to be put in harms way, they might be more reluctant to make war. They would certainly have to turn up the propaganda machine.*

    It is so obvious that so few are asked to do so much.
    http://abcnews.go.com/US/army-ranger...ry?id=14811227
    (yes I know Rangers deployments don't equal tours of duty - but they are intense).
    or my renter Sgt. Robert X, four tours, brain lesions, still active duty and permanent brain injuries and dealing with PTSD
    or http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...312&highlight=


    *http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/3350...war-why-should
    I'm having trouble getting past that whole volunteer thing, though. What say you about other dangerous jobs people take on willingly?

    If anyone wants to force me to take on the danger of being an NFL quarterback, I'll be happy to oblige. I know I'm at least as good as Jake Locker. And it wouldn't be fair for me to hide in my safe, privileged job and not have to make millions and bang models while contributing nothing to society. This could give new meaning to the term NFL draft.
  8. submessenger is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/09/2013 5:48pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So, you think PTSD would have a lower incidence rate among people that were *forced* to do Our Will than those that choose to do so? I'm not a shrink, but to me it seems the opposite effect would be the case.

    If you're really concerned about the troop levels, some things to do right off the bat would be:
    1) Honestly support the troops - none of this "I support the troops but not the mission," crap.
    2) Along the same lines, don't support any reduction in military funding.
    3) Increase benefits and pay.
    4) Similarly, exempt active duty from income tax at the local, state, and federal levels.
  9. mike321 is online now

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    Posted On:
    1/09/2013 6:54pm


     Style: kenpo, Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    NRA and suicide

    Quote Originally Posted by patfromlogan View Post

    And if the Chicken Hawks' children were on the line, and everyone else's children were liable to be put in harms way, they might be more reluctant to make war. They would certainly have to turn up the propaganda machine.*
    This line of reasoning does not hold up historically. Drafts did not stop ww1 ww2 Korea or Vietnam. The Elite have a long history of putting their kids in harms way. Some even did it for political advantage.
  10. Vorpal is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/10/2013 7:49am

    Join us... or die
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    3
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If we as a populace allow ourselves to be disarmed we will find our remaining rights exist at the whim of people who worked tirelessly to strip us of our most fundamental and essential right. Not somewhere I want to be.
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