Guns,guns,guns..Sam Harris's Opinion Piece

**-TANK-** · Posted On: 1/03/2013 7:08pm

Yes, Good point, you are right,No rug.

I just want the perps NAME- GONE Forever, so that he/she will not live in infamy, like OK City. I agree no heads in the sand, just dead bodies and their records who dun it.

Many a large ending in history occured because the dumbass knew his name was going down in the history books, and this way, it would never happen- takes care of that angle at least.

**Resonance10** · Posted On: 1/03/2013 7:13pm

Originally Posted by Permalost

We can't really study the phenomenon of random public shootings properly if we sweep all the details under a rug. An ostrich approach has never been the best way to go with violence and weapons.

Totally agree, case history teaches alot. I can see the point for less focus on the perps in the media.
I feel they get to much attention.

**submessenger** · Posted On: 1/03/2013 7:15pm

Originally Posted by -TANK-

Yes, Good point, you are right,No rug.

I just want the perps NAME- GONE Forever, so that he/she will not live in infamy, like OK City. I agree no heads in the sand, just dead bodies and their records who dun it.

Many a large ending in history occured because the dumbass knew his name was going down in the history books, and this way, it would never happen- takes care of that angle at least.

Making the perp anonymous is still a reactionary approach - not saying it would have no effect, but, like abstinence > abortion, preventing a tragic mass-shooting > denying fame. Yeah, I went there.

**Resonance10** · Posted On: 1/03/2013 7:19pm

Originally Posted by thrutch

You may get the occasional Brit chiming in on here, but then internet fora tend to be populated with people who think their opinion is valuable. American gun ownership is not really an issue over here.

I don't care. I can't think of anyone I know in the UK who really cares either. The USA's passion for gun ownership is a completely alien concept for the average Brit who's never owned, used or in many cases even seen a firearm. You'll get a brief media flutter after each school shooting, but it's quickly forgotten.

I suspect if you did a straw poll you'd find more people over here who are upset about Pakistani children being killed by American drones than those upset about American children being killed by American guns. I'd probably be one of them.

I think you might find that the same people upset by the drone strikes are the same people who have anti gun opinions and see such shootings as proof of their beliefs the Americans just love weapons irresponsibly. I have friends who think like this. Hell I have thought like this.

I would agree gun ownership is not an issue over here, but I think we have strong opinions based on the fact that them yanks love their guns, and I mean wrong opinions.

**Rivington** · Posted On: 1/03/2013 7:19pm

Have many rampage shooters made the point that they wanted to be on television? Some have—Cho of V. Tech comes to mind—but is it actually all that common among them?

**-TANK-** · Posted On: 1/03/2013 7:26pm

Originally Posted by Rivington

Have many rampage shooters made the point that they wanted to be on television? Some have—Cho of V. Tech comes to mind—but is it actually all that common among them?

Would be lying if I said I knew. Fact is recently here, a kid offed himself because of being bullied on facebook. So while that happened in yesteryears, it was because of the swing set if you get my drift.

Now the media, is an instant about everything. I dont care for it, but I adjust, and to me the real problem isnt even media- its upbrining, BUT

What if half the crazy killers knew they werent going down in history books, sheesh at least they might try something else, I dont know, but the media ends up talking about them waaaay too much. JMHO

**Permalost** · Posted On: 1/03/2013 7:48pm

Originally Posted by -TANK-

the media ends up talking about them waaaay too much. JMHO

The media kinda talks about everything waaay too much, except for unpleasant things that have already been that way a long time, or things that undermine the network's overlords. 24 hour news stations have to find something to fill 24 hours with. Hell, they gave Andy Rooney a spot on a newsy show just so he could fill some time complaining that the picture of cereal on the box is way bigger than the cereal in the box, then takes out a ruler to angrily ask the audience if they've ever seen A FOUR INCH LONG STRAWBERRY?!? It would almost seem disrespectful if these guys DIDN'T go on at length about a horrible tragedy after spending a few minutes noting that Sean Penn still kinda looks like Jeff Spicoli (a Yahoo news article online today, btw).

**thrutch** · Posted On: 1/03/2013 7:58pm

Originally Posted by Resonance10

I think you might find that the same people upset by the drone strikes are the same people who have anti gun opinions and see such shootings as proof of their beliefs the Americans just love weapons irresponsibly. I have friends who think like this. Hell I have thought like this.

I would agree gun ownership is not an issue over here, but I think we have strong opinions based on the fact that them yanks love their guns, and I mean wrong opinions.

I think you might find most of the people who are most upset about drone strikes live in areas with large populations of Pakistani descent - your Northern mill towns (I saw people leafleting about it in Rochdale just before Christmas) and Luton etc. I don't think there will be a particularly strong sentiment over domestic American gun ownership in those places.

Are there actually that many people over here who really have strong anti gun opinions? I genuinely don't come across them. It was maybe a conversation piece for a couple of days after everyone saw Bowling for Columbine, but I don't remember anyone I spoke to after any of the recent shootings saying Americans shouldn't have so many guns, or whatever.

After the massacre in Cumbria in 2010* did you hear people baying for gun ownership to be outlawed? I didn't. I'm not convinced that very many people over here give a flying **** about guns.

* for our overseas readers, a chap got a bit over-excited and shot 23 people, killing 12 of them. He used a legally owned rifle and shotgun.

**Mr. Machette** · Posted On: 1/03/2013 8:32pm

Originally Posted by Resonance10

Ok thats pretty harsh! And thats without proving malicous intent..? Do you think its fair or should 'intent' be proved in your opinion?
Ermghoti..says its rarely enforced tho..what kind of plea bargaining gets you out of such obviously condemned behaviour?
How does this pan out against other crimes like drug possession?

It depends on the area you're in.

The $250k fine + 10 years in club fed is a nationwide law. Keep in mind that is the "maximum reccomended" sentence. You could get off with less, but that's up to the judge and jury. To give you an idea of how strong that law is though, you could receive such a penalty for owning, or making this:

Most penalties for serious offenses still fall under the juresdiction of the state where they take place. Get caught in WA with a joint and they wont care unless you're behind the wheel. Get caught with that same joint in TX and you're looking at real jail time.

But lets just put it this way, some people get convicted of rape or murder 2 and are back on the street in a couple of years as opposed to ten for that DIAS in the picture.

Some people get caught with a loaded handgun and because of enhanced penalties for prior offenses wind up getting a decade for every bullet in the mag.

Did I mention our justice sytem is a total mess?

**Resonance10** · Posted On: 1/03/2013 8:52pm

Originally Posted by thrutch

I think you might find most of the people who are most upset about drone strikes live in areas with large populations of Pakistani descent - your Northern mill towns (I saw people leafleting about it in Rochdale just before Christmas) and Luton etc. I don't think there will be a particularly strong sentiment over domestic American gun ownership in those places.

Are there actually that many people over here who really have strong anti gun opinions? I genuinely don't come across them. It was maybe a conversation piece for a couple of days after everyone saw Bowling for Columbine, but I don't remember anyone I spoke to after any of the recent shootings saying Americans shouldn't have so many guns, or whatever.

After the massacre in Cumbria in 2010* did you hear people baying for gun ownership to be outlawed? I didn't. I'm not convinced that very many people over here give a flying **** about guns.

* for our overseas readers, a chap got a bit over-excited and shot 23 people, killing 12 of them. He used a legally owned rifle and shotgun.

Sure. I don't mean its a hot topic in some sense, didn't mean to give that impression. I'm up late and typing on the fly so my bad.
I mean to equate certain political views on the ( quite far) left ie: anti US intervention/anti war with an anti American sentiment often finding a perverse confirmation bias in the gun 'issue'.

Nearly everyone I spoke to after the latest shootings was very knee jerk 'its their gun culture' and such like, my Facebook 'friends' were quite self righteously and well meaningly on one about it for a quite a while.
After the Cumbria thing I did hear it from quite a few people saying such things yes, (along with such things as : " where going the way of America."
I have family in Cumbria..silence on it from them tho.

I guess its the circles you move in though how much you get of it.

Each time someone is shot in London its brought up that there is an American style 'gun culture' amongst the youth gangs, and the media and police bang on about how easy it is to get a gun.

This just says to me that the legality of guns in the USA is not the issue, there illegal here but people that want them get them.