Wing Chun and Aikido

**MrGalt** · Posted On: 1/02/2013 1:17pm

Originally Posted by KickPuncher

Neither have many "serious martial artists". TMA'ers and otherwise that don't train in an alive fashion have probably never been punched in the nose (or kicked in the ribs, or slammed into the gorund, etc.). Combine this with the self-delusion ("deadlier-than-thou" attitude) that often comes with certain MA training and you've got a great recipe for failure. To your point, being seasoned in a MA that reinforces bad habits can result in complete disaster. Certain MA's will make you better-prepared if and when the unfortunate time comes that you have to fight in the str33tz, but to think that any experienced martial artist will probably do just fine in a non-sanctioned encounter is a dangerous assumption.

I'll throw in my anecdote here:

I did Isshinryu Karate for 13 years before I moved to Japan, where I started doing Seidokaikan. While there I learned to kick with my instep and stop after landing a single light blow. I learned that winning a match was about showing good technique to judges and that for lack of a better word, I shouldn't be a dick to opponents.

I went to Osaka and started doing knockdown karate. I kicked, punched, and moved BEAUTIFULLY. I had an instructor tell me I sparred like I was posing for a textbook. That's the good news. The bad news is I got HURT. I ruined my feet and ankles for weeks at a time kicking with my insteps. I would land one gorgeous punch or kick, stop, and get my ass BEAT because it's a two minute round and there's no judge to stop it. I learned that it's perfectly acceptable practice to just kick the big dumb gaijin in the left leg twenty times in a row until he falls down because he doesn't know how to defend himself. There aren't bonus points for variety.

I didn't tweak my shortcomings in a couple of weeks either. After more than a decade of being a point-tapper it took me years to get rid of those bad habits, and even now I'm not as good as I could have been. If I hadn't done any karate at all and played rugby, football, or soccer instead for the 13 years up until I went to Japan I'd probably be a Seido black belt right now instead of topping out at brown.

**Chili Pepper** · Posted On: 1/02/2013 1:19pm

Originally Posted by Yimchaloi

The guy said that when he was younger they only used a few kicks in TKD and more punches. But that nowadays you see a huge variety of kicks.

I did a year of TKD back in 1982.

... I started to itemize a list of what I learned, but I got bored. Let me put it this way - there was a learning ratio of 3:1 or maybe 4:1 of kicks to punches.

**MrGalt** · Posted On: 1/02/2013 1:21pm

Originally Posted by Yimchaloi

...martial sport instead of martial art...I'm big on the whole Bruce Lee thing...studied a little Judo...learn how to defend against a grappler...

Oh, man. Sport vs. Street, Bruce Lee, and just a touch of anti-grapple, all in one post? You should be prepared to either settle in for a while or run screaming now.

**Neo Sigma** · Posted On: 1/02/2013 1:28pm

To paraphrase an old post, pro fighters don't use wing chun or aikido for the same reason Olympic sprinters don't run on their hands. Saying that there's nothing wrong with the style if only training methods were different is nonsense. The training method is part of the style, and all of the ones that have already been shown to work has a good deal of internal consistency- my muay thai coach isn't going to teach the exact same thing as someone else's, but I guarantee you that my gym and theirs both do a ****-ton of conditioning, padwork, sparring, and clinching. Without those things, what I'm doing may superficially resemble muay thai(maybe), but lacks all the necessary methods that would make it effective. It's the same as with boxing, wrestling, judo, and BJJ. That's why you never see anyone on here blathering about "MY gym has the real boxing, we do things differently than all those other crappy boxing gyms!"

If you make a "few minor tweaks"(read: massive, near-complete overhaul), to wing chun and aikido to try and make them effective, what you'll be left with is godawful, sloppy kickboxing and grappling. Which, you may notice, already have several highly effective and proven disciplines to train in.

The point is, you can waste your time trying to reinvent the wheel out of a square or a triangle, or you can just use the goddamn wheel.

**Larry Kansas** · Posted On: 1/02/2013 1:42pm

Originally Posted by Escrimator

As a former _unner,I can tell you i did not learn,or see anyone display any technical repertoire that will hold its own against any form of serious grappling, and certainly not against serious striking as you would encounter if you take on a MMA fighter.(or combat sport practicioner.)

Lets add the fact theres no preparation in the way of sparring\contact training,barely any serious conditioning for cardio,strength as part of the sistem. any WC\WT\VT guy wanting to compete would end up throwing away his initial style in favor of the cross-training disciplines he would have to engage in order prepare to comptete,unless hes a total moron.

I'm a former chunner as well. There was almost no strength and conditioning, except maybe the last few minutes, and only those of us who did it outside class could finish. It was a bunch of fat, and/or out of shape guys who thought their One True Art would save them in ten seconds or less.

In an effort to show how awesome WC is and how it applies to grappling as well, our instructor invited a novice WCer who previously did BJJ to get him on the ground in a rear naked choke. The instructor had to tap out.

There are a few good things about WC, but it's not something I would rely on in a fight for my life or a fight in a cage.

**Diesel_tke** · Posted On: 1/02/2013 1:49pm

Originally Posted by Yimchaloi

Gonna have to disagree on the construction worker vs the artist tho'. A big strong guy against a small weak guy? Well, sure. But I don't think just because he can swing a sledgehammer means he can fight. We've all seen the big tough muscle-guy turtle-up and turn away as soon as he gets punched once in the face by the little guy who knows what the hell he's doing. So I think that one's just kinda up for grabs; depends on the individuals in question, I s'pose.

I played football in highschool and then rugby in college. I bounced in clubs, but had no training at the time. I beat up a TKD blackbelt one time because he bet his buddy a case of beer that he could beat me up. It went bad for him. I got into a fight with a US marine. He was picking on a friend of mine. He ended up with ove 100 stitches in his face. I can't tell you how many fights I got in, while bouncing. I did very well. With no training. I'm a relatively big guy, 6ft 235lbs. My fight style at the time, was to be a big pissed off dude. I usually tackled people because of rugby and that's what I knew. Otherwise pounding face.

After years of training, now I know that I was lucky that I didn't face someone a lot better. But, it is what it is. I've seen lots of inmates with no martial arts training at all, beat the hell out of people who "claimed" to have training. One guy I know had training because it was in his file. Didn't keep him from an ass whipping though.

Seem kind of like you are hypothetically trying to justify not training in an alive art. This may not be the truth, but that how it looks to me. If it is true, then it won't work. If it isn't, my bad. I just hate hypotheticals.

**MrGalt** · Posted On: 1/02/2013 1:56pm

Originally Posted by Yimchaloi

We've all seen the big tough muscle-guy turtle-up and turn away as soon as he gets punched once in the face by the little guy who knows what the hell he's doing.

Who's this "we," paleface? Link please.

You do realize that you could type actual words faster than all those apostrophes, right? We'll see your character coming through in your posts without the dialect tricks.

**Yimchaloi** · Posted On: 1/02/2013 2:06pm

I guess I'm just thinking aloud. On the main point of my thread I think I received a bunch of excellent answers and I learned a lot just off of that. But please, don't mistake me: I'm trying to have a conversation, not start an argument or defend specific styles or declare superirority or anything like that. In order to have the discussion and learn more, I /have/ to ask questions or follow up. A lot of the preconceived notions and ideas I had because of my lack of experience in some of these arts is why I'm asking these questions. I sincerely didn't understand why we didn't see lots of chunners in MMA, and now I do. So let's not get into trying to find something EXTRA to disagree with here. Bruce Lee? Prolly shouldn't get into that jar of worms here it looks like. I respect him a lot, but some of you may not. That's cool. And yes, I did do a few months of judo and some grappling training. I /DO NOT/ consider myself a Judoka or a grappler. In fact, I still suck at it. But before I had studied grappling, I didn't even know how to get into any sort of guarding position or how to get someone off of me. I didn't know how take-downs worked so I didn't know how to defend against them. So I still suck at grappling, but I don't see what's insulting about saying that I dabbled a bit in an art that I suck at? I'm not claiming to be good at it or saying anything about the veracity of the style, I'm actually continually calling myself ignorant and inexperienced and keep deferring to those of you who have more experience.

All of you are giving me great answers. I've learned a whole bunch just from this one thread! (Thanks!) But some of you are being a little condescending and assuming I'm an asshat. I don't know how I could come in here and be more humble in my asking and more polite in my disagreeing on certain things? Perhaps I made a mistake in hopping on a forum for Martial Arts? It seems that some of the folks here already have a full cup and would like to drown me with their knowledge, while others are being very helpful and understanding of my ignorance.

I'm not a master. I'm not an instructor. I'm not a pro-fighter. I'm not a bad-ass ninja wannabe. So please don't act like I'm on some sort of high horse. Reread how respectful and modest I've been in trying to ask questions and even when I disagree when we get into tangents. I just love the Martial Arts. It's my favorite hobby, it's been beneficial in so many areas of my life that have nothing to do with fighting, and I just think it's amazing and interesting.

**Yimchaloi** · Posted On: 1/02/2013 2:09pm

That being said, thanks for all the responses! I think I'm done with this thread and where it's heading. I got the answer I was looking for and then some. Thank you again, guys!

**MrGalt** · Posted On: 1/02/2013 2:12pm

It's not insulting. It's just that there's one way to defend against a grappler and that's to be a better grappler. There's no such thing as "just enough to get back on your feet." That kind of training leads to what we usually call "crappling" around here.

I'm no grappler myself. I probably never will be. I'll stand a fair chance if the fight doesn't get to the ground, and I'll be completely hosed if it does. I've done a few months of judo myself but I don't pretend I know how to defend against it.