Wing Chun and Aikido

[KickPuncher]

To answer the first question, I believe that someone who has sincerely studied nearly any martial art will be able to hold their own against a random non-martial artist/non-fighter out on the street. Most people have never been in a fist fight, and most people have never been in a high-pressure situation where someone is trying to hit them. A lotta people have never been punched in the nose.

Neither have many "serious martial artists". TMA'ers and otherwise that don't train in an alive fashion have probably never been punched in the nose (or kicked in the ribs, or slammed into the gorund, etc.). Combine this with the self-delusion ("deadlier-than-thou" attitude) that often comes with certain MA training and you've got a great recipe for failure. To your point, being seasoned in a MA that reinforces bad habits can result in complete disaster. Certain MA's will make you better-prepared if and when the unfortunate time comes that you have to fight in the str33tz, but to think that any experienced martial artist will probably do just fine in a non-sanctioned encounter is a dangerous assumption.

[ChuckWepner]

I believe a skilled Wing Chun artist could prolly defend himself great on the street. But if he were training to fight full contact, wouldn't he just use the same theories and skills except train a little differently? Instead of prearranged forms, perhaps he'd just spend hours and hours and hours sparring with other artists and working on conditioning?

How is going from training forms mostly or exclusively to spending "hours and hours sparring" only training "a little differently" or "tweaking" one's training? It sounds more like completely overhauling your training methods.

It seems as though you are asking, If people who train forms and don't do hard sparring switched to mostly hard sparring, wouldn't they be able to fight? The answer to that is, it depends. It depends on what techniques they are using when they spar, who they are sparring with, and whether they have someone who knows how to train fighters guiding them. But there is no guarantee that they will be sparring with useful techniques, or against partners who test them in ways that will help them improve, or that they will get the kind of coaching that they need, if they are training in a system that has been locked in a no-sparring, forms-only mode for a long time.

My questions for you are: (1) Why do you think that switching from forms-focused to sparring- and conditioning -focused training is just a tweak rather than a huge shift? and (2) What reasons (that is, evidence), if any, do you have for thinking that WC (or Aikido, for that matter) as actually practiced would provide techniques that would lead to (a) productive sparring with (b) useful partners under (c) instruction that would enable you to become a genuinely effective fighter?

[It is Fake]

Take western wrestling. There are some bad habits that fighters with that background need to tweak when they get into MMA. For example when you worry about being pinned you avoid being on your back.

Nope, they are not bad habits. They are techniques trained for a SPECIFIC rule set. Yes, there is a difference.

That's like saying Judo has some bad habits because they practice throws and don't work on striking.

Oh and to what CW was saying it isn't that simple. The reason these arts have problems is the teacher. If I spent 20 years practicing dead, I can't suddenly teach people how to practice Alive. Mimicking only works for higher level athletes. Beginners need a real coach.

[Yimchaloi]

You make a pretty good argument. What I'm mostly doin' is just that, theorizing. And I despise the bs magic Ki Aikido stuff too. But I don't think that means that there aren't good Aikido schools or practitioners, or at least that there weren't at one point in time. Badasses who could magically throw opponents aside with their ki? Of course not. But I don't think that we should just disregard 100% of Aikido. There are a lotta BS styles out there tho', I agree. An' I guess Capoeira, but only really nowadays. I have a friend who's a Capoeira instuctor and I tease him all the time. What it's become is more of a sport/dance/art, but it was once the fighting style of low-class criminals on the street. I highly doubt they were doing fancy cartwheels and breakdancing moves when street-fighting, but I'm sure they were using sweeps and headbutts so they could get you on the ground to stab the **** outta ya. Even TKD has changed entirely over the years, at least according to the interviews I've read with some of the old masters.

Those're kinda beside the main point of the thread tho'. I think after talkin' it out with you guys I can understand better why you don't really see most of these arts used in full-contact competition: they just don't train for it, they don't have all the tools for it, etc. I think you're spot on saying that most of those stylists prolly haven't been punched full force more often than the general population, tho' I'm sure we can agree that there are always exceptions - which prove the rule. Muay Thai fighters are used to that ****; the average karateka/aikidoka is not.

Gonna have to disagree on the construction worker vs the artist tho'. A big strong guy against a small weak guy? Well, sure. But I don't think just because he can swing a sledgehammer means he can fight. We've all seen the big tough muscle-guy turtle-up and turn away as soon as he gets punched once in the face by the little guy who knows what the hell he's doing. So I think that one's just kinda up for grabs; depends on the individuals in question, I s'pose.

[captainbirdseye]

Okay. Ki Aikido, Capoeira, Yellow Bamboo.

At least the Capoeira guy will probably be reasonably athletic.

[Chili Pepper]

But if he were training to fight full contact, wouldn't he just use the same theories and skills except train a little differently? Instead of prearranged forms, perhaps he'd just spend hours and hours and hours sparring with other artists and working on conditioning? Isn't that sorta what every fighter does?

Yes, he would give up on forms and chi sau and spend his time sparring and conditioning. Thing is, it's been done, and what happens is their training breaks down into shitty kickboxing/crappling until they give up the inefficient structure they've been saddled with.

There have been a few chunners who've tried to make a go as MMA fighters ... and the results have been sub-optimal.

[Yimchaloi]

Wow! By the time I typed up my long-winded response, there were already more answers! You guys are giving me great insights and helping me understand better. I profess my ignorance, which is why I'm posting and asking questions. I really dig this site so far, great resource for consolidated MA info and dialogue through all sorts of perspectives.

[It is Fake]

You make a pretty good argument. What I'm mostly doin' is just that, theorizing. And I despise the bs magic Ki Aikido stuff too. But I don't think that means that there aren't good Aikido schools or practitioners, or at least that there weren't at one point in time. Badasses who could magically throw opponents aside with their ki? Of course not. But I don't think that we should just disregard 100% of Aikido.

Some people don't. Then again train what you want, but don't complain when there are styles and teachers that do it better. Why go search for that 1-1,000,000 aikido school when I can take Judo up the street? Why pay learn as much for non-alive chun when I can go train boxing? Why do kempo ground techniques when I can learn BJJ. Oh and lets be real people talk about price, but TMA has creeped up to the point where shitty training only saves you $10-$20 a month. Hell, we've seen hole in the wall schools, without nice facilities, charge more than a 1 year contract at an MMA school.

Even TKD has changed entirely over the years, at least according to the interviews I've read with some of the old masters.

No, not really. That's the entire " back in the day" argument. No, those same Masters stopped letting their art evolve with the times. It was "better" because no one was as money motivated as now.

Master: Hey instead of 5 belts lets make 20.
Master: Sparring hurts, injures students and I lose income.
Master: We will now only do forms and spar once a week.
Master: Point fighting, with stops, eliminates even more injuries.
Master: Man, it was better back in the day.


The rest is all old, I'll let someone else answer that stuff.

[W. Rabbit]

Quick question: why don't I see a lot of Wing Chun practictioners or Aikidoka competing in UFC-type stuff? I have a lot of respect for both arts and I think that there are a lot of things that they both have to offer. But the fact remains that I see all other sorts of MA represented, but I don't see any of these guys. I don't mean like... pure stylists. I think with the ruleset of MMA-type fights that it would put a pure Aikidoka at a severe disadvantage for the most part.

"Pure stylists" ... "pure Aikidoka at a severe disadvantage".

You are answering your own question but too deluded with names to realize it. Yes, believing for a moment your style is "pure" is a severe delusion.

MMA evolved to defeat so-called "pure" stylists, which is why the smart "pure stylists" empty their cup and open their minds, rather than doubling down hoping their chain punches could, in some corner of the Universe, someday counter the shoot of a 200 lb man.

Royce Gracie emptied his cup. He learned Muay Thai after he took a few good licks and realized his opponents had finally gone and learned every BJJ trick dad had shown him.

Onassis Parungao's cup was empty BEFORE UFC. He used kung fu striking to set up a ground submission in UFC7.

Seeking purity, you will find nothing of the sort.

[Yimchaloi]

It Is Fake:

I have to respectfully disagree. Well, I mean... I agree with you mostly, I think maybe I just was misunderstood in that part. What I mean to say is that Taekwondo has evolved over the years. Not necessarily become better or worse, just changed in a technical fashion. I wish I could remember... Jhoon Rhee, maybe? I'd have to google it, I read it in a book years ago. The guy said that when he was younger they only used a few kicks in TKD and more punches. But that nowadays you see a huge variety of kicks. My personal observation following Olympic style TKD is that there are sometimes "trends" of techniques in the sport at any one time. I've also read that Muay Thai has been evolving somewhat in recent times because of the influence of western boxing techniques. Although, we're kinda crossin' over into martial sport instead of martial art. So I guess it wouldn't apply 100%.

I would like to add here that I've never been to a Wing Chun school and I don't have any friends who do it or anything. I have absolutely zero first-hand knowledge of it and only know what I've read over the years. I have also never fought MMA. So I'm very much asking with an empty cup mentality. I always call it "white belt mentality." If I think I already know enough, that's when I stop improving and get my ass beat. I'm big on the whole Bruce Lee thing of using whatever works and not being stuck or fixed in any one system or form. When I find that I'm lacking in something or some technique is kicking my ass, I always ask my sparring partners how they're doing it or I seek out a teacher. For instance, I suck balls at grappling so I studied a little Judo and did a few months of 1 on 1 instruction with an MMA instructor so I could learn how to defend against a grappler and so I don't panic when I get grabbed or taken down. I hope I keep a white belt mentality forever. That's sorta why I'm on these forums asking questions....