Traditional Karate Grappling

***DerAuslander*** · Posted On: 1/03/2013 8:30am

Originally Posted by Budo_Brown

Agreed. I talked to my sensi about grappling. He suggested I take a year of Judo to get a good base and understanding of the art then work karate and akido throws due to me being 5'8 170 lbs. He said Judo throws are hard to perform on someone a good deal bigger than me. Plus, I want to learn the ground grappling that Judo teaches.

It's spelled Aikido.

**Tetsumusha** · Posted On: 1/03/2013 8:46am

I think that, in general, strikes have been more neglected by judo practitioners than grappling techniques have been by karate practitioners. That said, I do still advocate cross-training--the grappling found in karate, even when trained effectively, is intended for use on untrained opponents, so it is fairly low-level grappling. If you want to have enough grappling to handle yourself against the average tough guy, you can find karate instructors who know enough. If you want to be as effective as you can possibly be then, of course, you need to cross-train in a grappling art. Even karate masters of old advocated this, many of them regularly pursuing tegumi, sumo, judo, aikido or jujutsu. I, personally, spent 4 of my 6.5 years (so far) of karate training also training in judo, and I constantly incorporate it into my karate. I never was a great judo competitor, but when combining it with strikes and controlling techniques of karate, it works fantastically.

**Vieux Normand** · Posted On: 1/03/2013 11:59am

For those into the "found-grappling-in-kata" thing, many bunkai will make a lot more sense as nage than as strikes.

However, you will only figure this out in a physical sense if:

1) You already had a grappling background before taking up Karate

2) You cross-train regularly in some form of grappling

3) You practise those bunkai in an alive manner

and/or

4) You have a job where you have to put your skills to use.

**Rock Ape** · Posted On: 1/04/2013 8:14am

Budo_Brown

Do me a favour (as a moderator for this area of the site)

Please refrain from posting entire articles within your posts. Because..

1. Regardless of how informative it may be, it's still a wall of text.
2. People may be more inclined to disregard or ignore your post because of # 1
3. You're reproducing an entire document which may breach copyright, even if you cite the author.

If you want to start a discussion regarding a published piece of work, summarize the article or document specific to what you wish to discuss and include the link or reference to the entire work for others to read.

If you do this again, infractions may be given.

Thank you.

**Rock Ape** · Posted On: 1/04/2013 8:24am

Originally Posted by Budo_Brown

Agreed. I talked to my sensi about grappling. He suggested I take a year of Judo to get a good base and understanding of the art then work karate and akido throws due to me being 5'8 170 lbs. He said Judo throws are hard to perform on someone a good deal bigger than me. Plus, I want to learn the ground grappling that Judo teaches.

I don't think your "Sensei" really understands what's involved.

It will take longer than a year to become really proficient at Judo - Probably explains why people study it for years and years. Aikido won't work at all unless you're really lucky to get an instructor who has been actively involved in resistance based training - trust me when I say, there's not many of those. Even if you are lucky, Aikido waza are complex series of movements with taisabaki which is completely different to Karate-do and judo. They take a long time to become natural movements.

Then you've got the issue of compartmentalising each of the systems, (as they all have physically different mechanical principles) so that you're able to correctly internalise the disciplines and maintain the authenticity of each through their respective gradings.

I fully support cross training however, it can be as much of a hindrance as it is of benefit to someone's skill sets. I wouldn't suggest cross-training in a system which has different mechanical principles until you have a very firm grasp on your primary art - possibly approaching senior kyu to early dan grade (depending upon how much time you have to devote to your entire training.)

**aznraven** · Posted On: 1/05/2013 11:46am

I disagree with ^^^^^^^^^^^^ I think taking a new system in a different aspect (grappling) where you have almost no knowledge in (like me) and not really covered in your style, it is not really much of a hindrance.

If you are doing Kyokushin Karate for stand-up, know that the grappling is non-existent. Step sparring "grappling moves" can hardly be used and your are not even allows to grab any part of your opponent in sparring. So do Judo and learn what you need for grappling without any attachment from KK.

**Budo_Brown** · Posted On: 1/05/2013 3:39pm

Originally Posted by Rock Ape

Budo_Brown

Do me a favour (as a moderator for this area of the site)

Please refrain from posting entire articles within your posts. Because..

1. Regardless of how informative it may be, it's still a wall of text.
2. People may be more inclined to disregard or ignore your post because of # 1
3. You're reproducing an entire document which may breach copyright, even if you cite the author.

If you want to start a discussion regarding a published piece of work, summarize the article or document specific to what you wish to discuss and include the link or reference to the entire work for others to read.

If you do this again, infractions may be given.

Thank you.

Understood.

**Budo_Brown** · Posted On: 1/05/2013 3:54pm

Originally Posted by Rock Ape

I don't think your "Sensei" really understands what's involved.

It will take longer than a year to become really proficient at Judo - Probably explains why people study it for years and years. Aikido won't work at all unless you're really lucky to get an instructor who has been actively involved in resistance based training - trust me when I say, there's not many of those. Even if you are lucky, Aikido waza are complex series of movements with taisabaki which is completely different to Karate-do and judo. They take a long time to become natural movements.

Then you've got the issue of compartmentalising each of the systems, (as they all have physically different mechanical principles) so that you're able to correctly internalise the disciplines and maintain the authenticity of each through their respective gradings.

I fully support cross training however, it can be as much of a hindrance as it is of benefit to someone's skill sets. I wouldn't suggest cross-training in a system which has different mechanical principles until you have a very firm grasp on your primary art - possibly approaching senior kyu to early dan grade (depending upon how much time you have to devote to your entire training.)

Thanks for the feedback. My Sensi who is actually Shihan was born in Japan and trained there in martial arts his entire life there until he moved to Utah. He himself took 4 years of Judo in Japan. He speaks very broken English so when he told me to take Judo first before learning any advanced throws he knew. I asked if a year would be enough. He said yes, or a little more. So to his defense, I did some assuming. If anything it's me that doesn't understand what's involved, not him.

As far as waiting to cross train I've heard many mixed opinions on this. I currently train 5 days a week but after my tournament I'm dropping to four days a week to spend a little more time at home with my wife. I was planning on 2 days kyokushin and 2 days Judo. From watching lots of YouTube on Judo as well as picking up some books I see the footwork is very very different. As far as breaking balance of your opponent, we cover that slightly when being taught street self defense which is only a couple times a week. Could you possibly explain the negatives of cross training early into my training please?

**It is Fake** · Posted On: 1/05/2013 4:14pm

Study what is at your school. You are showing the problems some people have when preparing to cross-train. You aren't getting a "head start" by reading and viewing Judo videos. You are already starting to analyze differences with only one months in one art and zero in another.

You have a tournament, focus on that.

**Budo_Brown** · Posted On: 1/05/2013 5:19pm

Originally Posted by It is Fake

Study what is at your school. You are showing the problems some people have when preparing to cross-train. You aren't getting a "head start" by reading and viewing Judo videos. You are already starting to analyze differences with only one months in one art and zero in another.

You have a tournament, focus on that.

Good advice. Thanks.