For the TKD'ers: Favorite Poomse/Hyung?

[Omega Supreme]

No, but I am honestly surprised that's your definition of applicable.



Why is the other hand empty when it's pulled back to chamber?

Why not?

This is either A) irrelevant or B) I'd like to see what you would teach adults.

Of course it's relevant. Adults don't normally learn these forms. They're too basic.

I didn't say that the Taeguek pumse were more effective, I said that I don't see how anyone can argue that the Palgwe pumese are any more effective or applicable to actual combat.

Try keeping the argument straight. I showed you how I think the Palgwes are taught in an effective manner. I have a beginning one on video that kids are doing. I noticed you didn't quote my last paragraph. Keep it in context. My point is Tae geuks are crap, I found the Palgwe's have more direct applicability. I've proven it, now come at me with something that's actually a counter point.

[DerAuslander]

Why not?

So, you think an applicable movement is putting your fist in chamber?

Do you teach your students to block with their faces too?

Of course it's relevant. Adults don't normally learn these forms. They're too basic.

So, what form & application would you teach an adult Taekwondo white belt?

I showed you how I think the Palgwes are taught in an effective manner.

I don't think it's effective at all. Seriously, they're chambering punches. Why waste time with that? Why not just teach kickboxing?

I have a beginning one on video that kids are doing.

In that, you may have an out with bunhae like that. It's the equivalent of Itosu teaching low block-face punch applications of his kata to public school students in Okinawa rather than the actual joint locks, throws, and strikes of the actual effective bunkai of his kata.

I noticed you didn't quote my last paragraph. Keep it in context.

It's irrelevant. You taught a kid to throw hammerfists. That does not mean their is a direct correlation of applicability or effectiveness to a complete interpretation to a given pumse's bunhae.

You're teaching them to drop their fists to their sides.

My point is Tae geuks are crap, I found the Palgwe's have more direct applicability. I've proven it,

You haven't proven anything, you've left me with more questions than anything.

If these applications are just for kids, then where's the adult stuff?

If these applications are effective, why are you teaching them to leave their faces wide open with pointless movements like chambering an empty hand?

I see nothing in your applications that convinces me that the there is any superiority in either set of pumse.

Both the Taegeukl & Palgwe pumse are just rehashes of Shorin-ryu kata. Those rehashes were done by Korean masters who had never learned any bunkai at all, which meant sequences were just cobbled together in ignorance. So no, I don't see how either set can have any greater applicability.

As for the walking stance, there are kata with similar sequences in Shorin-ryu. They have applications.

now come at me with something that's actually a counter point.

I'll try and film something...for both Palgwe & Taegeuk Iljang...this weekend.

[Omega Supreme]

So, you think an applicable movement is putting your fist in chamber?

Do you teach your students to block with their faces too?

You're funny. Yes I do. That being said you looking at grab counters, where would you like their hand? Would you like us to change the form ? Truth be told later on they're told to chamber at the heart.

So, what form & application would you teach an adult Taekwondo white belt?

I don't, I don't teach Taekwondo, I teach kung fu. I use the TKD forms for the kids.

I don't think it's effective at all. Seriously, they're chambering punches. Why waste time with that? Why not just teach kickboxing?

You're so funny. You see one form and you think you know everything I teach. They've already learned kickboxing by this time. You have to know basic kickboxing just to get to this level. This discussion is the purpose of showing the application of a Taegeuk form vs a Palgwe form. So far you've done nothing but argue the "should we teach form application vs direct fighting method". It's not the issue. If you want to make it the issue than do so.

It's irrelevant. You taught a kid to throw hammerfists. That does not mean their is a direct correlation of applicability or effectiveness to a complete interpretation to a given pumse's bunhae.

You're teaching them to drop their fists to their sides.

No, I'm not. For the record when the kid threw that technique we asked him where he learned it. The form.

You haven't proven anything, you've left me with more questions than anything.

If these applications are just for kids, then where's the adult stuff?

You know how many times I've put those videos up?

If these applications are effective, why are you teaching them to leave their faces wide open with pointless movements like chambering an empty hand?

Would you like it stuck up their ass?

I see nothing in your applications that convinces me that the there is any superiority in either set of pumse.

That's because you are trolling. Most of these guys don't know the difference but you choose to fight an ignorant bias.

Both the Taegeukl & Palgwe pumse are just rehashes of Shorin-ryu kata.

Palgwe's yes, Taegeuk no.

Those rehashes were done by Korean masters who had never learned any bunkai at all, which meant sequences were just cobbled together in ignorance. So no, I don't see how either set can have any greater applicability.

That's because you're taking my statements to you as separate context instead of as a whole.

As for the walking stance, there are kata with similar sequences in Shorin-ryu. They have applications.

Great show them, exactly as they teach them. I'll wait.

I'll try and film something...for both Palgwe & Taegeuk Iljang...this weekend.

Why so I can act like you and tear every little thing apart? Seriously if you just want to be an asshole I can stop with trying to have a constructive conversation with you.

[Omega Supreme]

....and since you are insisting on being an asshole I just walked out on the floor and video taped our basic drills for both adults and kids. Non choreographed....What's next, why aren't they kicking a heavy bag?

[DerAuslander]

You're funny. Yes I do. That being said you looking at grab counters, where would you like their hand? Would you like us to change the form ? Truth be told later on they're told to chamber at the heart.

Why did you think the technique was supposed to be a grab counter?

Why is the other hand completely unengaged?

Would you fight that?

Aside from the elementary school version, a bunhae has to make sense as a complete solution to a combative situation. If your application is just that elementary school version, which seems to be the case since you state you only teach it to kids, and only use techniques similar to any TKD/TSD/Karate one-step sparring, there's nothing wrong with that.

There's nothing wrong with that. It's just not an application of the actual movements found within the set.

This discussion is the purpose of showing the application of a Taegeuk form vs a Palgwe form. So far you've done nothing but argue the "should we teach form application vs direct fighting method". It's not the issue. If you want to make it the issue than do so.

Well, part of the problem here is the difference in what you call an application and what I call an application. They are drastically different things. What you call applications simply aren't by my definition. They're redefinitions of the movements, incorrect bunhae whether you teach it, whether a Korean grandmaster teaches it, whether a Shotokan sensei teaches it, etc. They are what happened when the actual applications were stripped from how the forms were taught for fightingso they could be taught to elementary school children for physical culture.

Ergo, any discussion of whether or not Palgwe is more effective or of a similarly effective nature than the Taegeuk pumse largely become impossible. I don't consider your definition of applicability to be valid.

Would you like it stuck up their ass?

I've never encountered bunhae for either the Palgwe or the Taeguk pumse suggesting a movement requires insertion of the hand into the anal sphincter. Sounds like it would be even more useless than putting it in chamber empty.

That's because you are trolling. Most of these guys don't know the difference but you choose to fight an ignorant bias.

No, Omega, I'm not trolling. I realize this may come as a shock to you, but just because someone disagrees with you about something does not mean they are trolling. You're right, I do know better than most of these guys. Research every kata bunkai/pumse bunhae thread or anything else discussing form applications on this website and I will pretty much guarantee you will see posts by me in that thread. Maybe instead of flipping out, you could calm down and actually take the time to consider why I've disagreed with you instead of just disregarding what I've said.

Palgwe's yes, Taegeuk no.

Both the Palgwe & Taegeuk pumse were designed by committee & lifted entire sections from the various Pyeongan hyeong. The differences between the two in those sections are almost negligible.

That's because you're taking my statements to you as separate context instead of as a whole.

No, I'm not taking your statements in a separate context instead of as a whole. I'm working from a completely different context, that of bunhae, as opposed to elementary school definitions of Korean karate movements.

Great show them, exactly as they teach them. I'll wait.

Again, this shows a difference of the two contexts that we are working with here.

I would say that your applications are the ones that do not use the form movements as they actually teach them. One of the fundamental rules of bunhae is that all movements are significant & serve a purpose. One of the fundamental concepts traditional taught in Mudeokgwan is that of eumyangsu, that one hand's motion accompanies the other hand's motion. I believe they call this mother-son hands in some systems of kung fu. A set is not just the static picture of the end techniques, but the transitions as hands flow from low to high, high to low, extending and retracting, and as the body's center of gravity moves forward and backward, from high to low.

So when I see a practitioner doing an application where an empty hand is pulled back to a chamber, either at the hand or the heard, I want to know why, because that is not bunhae. It's a wasted, suplerflous movement.

Why so I can act like you and tear every little thing apart? Seriously if you just want to be an asshole I can stop with trying to have a constructive conversation with you.

So this is how you respond to someone who disagrees with you.

[DerAuslander]

....and since you are insisting on being an asshole I just walked out on the floor and video taped our basic drills for both adults and kids. Non choreographed....What's next, why aren't they kicking a heavy bag?

That's cool, but it's not Palgwe Iljang.

You teach Palgwe Iljang, and you only teach it to kids, and from my perspective, you only teach the elementary school oriented applications to those movements.

You do not teach Palgwe Iljang bunhae to adults.

[Omega Supreme]

So this is how you respond to someone who disagrees with you.

Me: This is how we breakdown this form for beginners
You: Why not teach them kickboxing?
Me: Not what we're talking about but here.
You: That's not Palgue.

Like I said, you're just being an asshole, not disagreeing.

[DerAuslander]

Me: This is how we breakdown this form for beginners
You: Why not teach them kickboxing?
Me: Not what we're talking about but here.
You: That's not Palgue.

Like I said, you're just being an asshole, not disagreeing.

You'll want to actually go back and read what I said.

[Omega Supreme]

**** you, you don't want to actually talk about what we agreed to talk about so feel free to kiss my ass.

[tkd panda]

My favorite pattern has to be juche very difficult to learn and requires near perfect balance.