For the TKD'ers: Favorite Poomse/Hyung?

***Omega Supreme*** · Posted On: 1/01/2013 11:10am

Originally Posted by Yimchaloi

I dunno. I tend to both agree and disagree, Omega. The Taeguk forms serve a very limited and specific training purpose. I agree that they are sterile, lacking a lot of aesthetic, lacking a sense of realism, etc... tons o' issues there. But if we look at it as a simple teaching tool, a way for beginners to practice a few moves at a time, then I don't see it as being that bad. When someone doesn't know what a walking stance is or how to throw an outer block, then I think the Taeguk are great. It helps prepare the student for what he'll end up learning in class. I mean, you gotta know the names of movements, how to stand at attention, what certain commands mean...

I think if we look at the Taeguk more along the lines of push-ups or a simple conditioning tool, then I think they serve that purpose. I still will sometimes practice a few at a very slow pace to work on strengthening certain muscles or to work on balance or whatevs. When I was younger I remember we would practice our forms at a slow pace with 8-12 lbs weights in each hand. Doing this stuff doesn't make me a better fighter, but I think it's contributed at least a little bit.

I am a paradox. The exception to the rule. I've fought pro mma, kickboxing and grappling. Yet I still adhere to forms. I do them to this day. I know literally dozens of forms. From Chinese, Japanese, and Korean backgrounds. I know the Palgues the Taegeuks, and the Chon ji forms. The Tae geuk forms are nothing more than a veiled attempt to concede to the political pressure of the Korean prejudice. There is no purpose to them. They teach bad technique. Most judges have no idea what the **** they are looking at when they're done. They are worst than a joke they are pathetic. The WTF might as well just say they're going to teach ballet sparring from now on and drop these forms because they have nothing to do with the actual style.

*edit: For the record I hold a 2nd degree blackbelt from both ITF and WTF.

**Yimchaloi** · Posted On: 1/01/2013 11:35am

I respect that your experience in forms across several systems gives you much more of an insight on them than I have. I only have first-hand experience doing WTF forms. I've seen plenty of other forms/kata/sets/whatever over the years at tourneys or in vids, but that's very different than actually learning them and internalizing the movements and their purpose.

I've always wanted to learn other forms, especially certain Goju Ryu kata. It seems like there is a lot more substance to some of them. I agree that the Taeguk is so far removed from actual combat that it's pretty much an imitation of what real kata/forms are, but like I said, I think that if we keep its limitations in mind then it is an excellent training wheel. It's almost like a cookie-cutter curriculum. It's a shallow pool: it's deep enough to get wet or even drown, but you won't learn how to swim in it. Great when you need to show a few basic concepts to a beginner, but after that it's time to get them outta your head and do some actual drills or sparring.

The vast majority of my experience is in WTF, but I've been to some open tourneys too with ITF, Karate, etc. I've become very, very, very disillusioned about WTF over the years as well. Pretty lame when you see 4th-degree's who are 12 and are judging matches or poomsae. You're totally right on the judges, at least for smaller local tourneys. My first dojang was a sport TKD school, under Master Vu. He pushed us for tourneys and **** all the time. He was a legit instructor, legit badass, but he was pushing the sport aspect way more than the self defense or even art aspect. So while I became pretty good at kicking people and scoring points, I ended up having to play catch-up ever since on the skills that he never had us work. Which was pretty much everything else. WTF prepared me for competition, and only marginally for fighting. I am still trying to get rid of bad habits and a lotta useless kicks that score points but don't do damage.

That being said, I still prefer WTF to ITF. At least, the way we trained. Each school is different but because my school placed so much emphasis on competition and because WTF is an Olympic sport, some of us became some /mean/ athletes. So there were many skills and lessons I learned from my WTF experience that I am very grateful for and still help me to this day.

***Omega Supreme*** · Posted On: 1/01/2013 11:39am

I liked both WTF and ITF but I lost a lot of respect for the WTF. I've been to national championships. Hell I got disqualified as a blackbelt in a WTF competition because I knocked a guy out with a body punch. (Seriously?).

Want to know something interesting? All those low blocks you're learning in the forms; they're not low blocks. Go figure that one out.

**Yimchaloi** · Posted On: 1/01/2013 11:50am

Yeah, I've competed at state and national levels for WTF too. I have seen some pretty flippin' AMAZING Taekwondoists. Seems like these guys can float on air while they're "fighting" eachother!

Yeah, I remember some of those dumb rules. I'm surprised that you got disqualified for that... actually, I guess I'm not that surprised. They allow knock-outs but it's still limiting. For instance, if you kick him in the face too hard you can get disqualified for excessive force. Which never made any sense to me since the whole point always seemed like we were SUPPOSED to kick the other guy in the face really hard and hope he didn't get back up. *sighs* It was a lotta fun when I was younger tho'!

Low blocks not low blocks? My guess from my sofa-studying is that they are supposed to be forearm or hammerstrikes to the groin? I never even considered that those low blocks weren't supposed to be low blocks. It makes sense tho', since dropping your arm to below your waist to block a low kick is probably the dumbest fucking thing I ever learned. Even now I am /STILL/ trying to lose the muscle memory of some of that ****.

***Omega Supreme*** · Posted On: 1/01/2013 11:59am

Originally Posted by Yimchaloi

Yeah, I've competed at state and national levels for WTF too. I have seen some pretty flippin' AMAZING Taekwondoists. Seems like these guys can float on air while they're "fighting" eachother!

Yeah, I remember some of those dumb rules. I'm surprised that you got disqualified for that... actually, I guess I'm not that surprised. They allow knock-outs but it's still limiting. For instance, if you kick him in the face too hard you can get disqualified for excessive force. Which never made any sense to me since the whole point always seemed like we were SUPPOSED to kick the other guy in the face really hard and hope he didn't get back up. *sighs* It was a lotta fun when I was younger tho'!

Low blocks not low blocks? My guess from my sofa-studying is that they are supposed to be forearm or hammerstrikes to the groin? I never even considered that those low blocks weren't supposed to be low blocks. It makes sense tho', since dropping your arm to below your waist to block a low kick is probably the dumbest fucking thing I ever learned. Even now I am /STILL/ trying to lose the muscle memory of some of that ****.

Yeah, that's the problem I had with a lot of systems. They had no idea what was truly being taught to them and a lot of misinformation was passed down through ignorance and by design. No, all those low blocks you threw in those forms are actually guard positions. Take a look at the old karate one step sparring and you'll see what I'm talking about.

**Vorpal** · Posted On: 1/01/2013 12:08pm

Originally Posted by Omega Supreme

I liked both WTF and ITF but I lost a lot of respect for the WTF. I've been to national championships. Hell I got disqualified as a blackbelt in a WTF competition because I knocked a guy out with a body punch. (Seriously?).

Want to know something interesting? All those low blocks you're learning in the forms; they're not low blocks. Go figure that one out.

Please elaborate. I've been wondering about that since I took TSD in the 80s.

**Yimchaloi** · Posted On: 1/01/2013 12:18pm

I guess what I'm seeing when I youtubed it is that it's like a ready or start position for when doing step-sparring. But that sorta gives me the impression that it's supposed to be a fighting stance almost. And I don't think that's what you were gettin' at, right, Omega?

This is what I mean:

I can only speak from my own personal experience, but I usually only ever find myself in a front stance while transitioning or for a very short period of time. I remember a sparring buddy and I always laughed at some of the silly classical stances, and then when we were studying our sparring footage and slowing it down we noticed that we would actually be in those stances for just a split second!