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  1. Ming Loyalist is offline
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    solves problems with violence

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    Posted On:
    12/31/2012 1:38pm

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     Style: Judo, Hung Family Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DerAuslander View Post
    Not tactical assault enough.

    It at least needs a picatinny rail and a LLM01 laser sight.
    plus it needs to be all black, right?
    "Face punches are an essential character building part of a martial art. You don't truly love your children unless you allow them to get punched in the face." - chi-conspiricy
    "When I was a little boy, I had a sailor suit, but it didn't mean I was in the Navy." - Mtripp on the subject of a 5 year old karate black belt
    "Without actual qualifications to be a Zen teacher, your instructor is just another roundeye raping Asian culture for a buck." - Errant108
    "Seriously, who gives a **** what you or Errant think? You're Asian males, everyone just ignores you, unless you're in a krotty movie." - new2bjj
  2. DerAuslander is offline
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    Valiant Monk of Booze & War

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    Posted On:
    12/31/2012 1:44pm

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     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ming Loyalist View Post
    plus it needs to be all black, right?
    Well, yeah. Murdered out like a ninja.
  3. Dickhead is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/31/2012 1:47pm


     Style: jkd

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    What?! You're not going to spray it camo? What a let down.
  4. Anjin is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/02/2013 11:49am


     Style: Xingyi

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ming Loyalist View Post
    5) weapons were mostly seen as strength training workouts with some minimal benefit of the forms teaching some concepts that could benefit a fighter's empty hand techniques (debatable if you ask me.)
    The strength training is debateable, or the benefit of conceptual learning from weapons? I see how both could be. As far as a strength training thing, i think its benefit is somewhat limited in that you can't really adjust the resistance of a blade. I mean i suppose you could go from a dao to a progressively bigger dadao or big dao, but that's not convenient nor does it seem to be something I see in a lot of school curriculums.

    As far as principles, maybe there is some benefit. Some styles seem to gravitate toward a specific weapon or training tools that resemble weapons. Xingyi with a spear, bagua with a dao, taiji with a jian. I think we could think of it as a more advanced form of shen fa I guess. Either way, it doesnt seem to be recommended for beginners in any of these arts from what i see.
  5. Ming Loyalist is offline
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    solves problems with violence

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    Posted On:
    1/02/2013 11:55am

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     Style: Judo, Hung Family Boxing

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anjin View Post
    The strength training is debateable, or the benefit of conceptual learning from weapons? I see how both could be. As far as a strength training thing, i think its benefit is somewhat limited in that you can't really adjust the resistance of a blade. I mean i suppose you could go from a dao to a progressively bigger dadao or big dao, but that's not convenient nor does it seem to be something I see in a lot of school curriculums.

    As far as principles, maybe there is some benefit. Some styles seem to gravitate toward a specific weapon or training tools that resemble weapons. Xingyi with a spear, bagua with a dao, taiji with a jian. I think we could think of it as a more advanced form of shen fa I guess. Either way, it doesnt seem to be recommended for beginners in any of these arts from what i see.
    i meant both.

    for strength training it's simply not as effective as weight based strength training, although swinging around a sword or pole is going to make you stronger than not doing anything but empty hand work.

    for the principles, i really don't see it being much good. most CMA people need to focus on the principle of applying basic strikes with impact against a resisting opponent, rather than leaning deep lessons from the art of swordmanship.
    "Face punches are an essential character building part of a martial art. You don't truly love your children unless you allow them to get punched in the face." - chi-conspiricy
    "When I was a little boy, I had a sailor suit, but it didn't mean I was in the Navy." - Mtripp on the subject of a 5 year old karate black belt
    "Without actual qualifications to be a Zen teacher, your instructor is just another roundeye raping Asian culture for a buck." - Errant108
    "Seriously, who gives a **** what you or Errant think? You're Asian males, everyone just ignores you, unless you're in a krotty movie." - new2bjj
  6. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    1/02/2013 12:24pm

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

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    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    The dao forms I've learned contain mostly basic fencing techniques.

    Parries, slashes, thrusts, ripostes, lunges, and feints.

    There, I just saved you some money. Merry Christmas.
    But is that really what you're looking at when you see the video you posted there? Because the wrapping around the neck isn't fencing, nor is the cat stance with the sword back and the left palm forward. I think that CMA broadsword SHOULD be as you described it, but when you look around, it isn't, and there's a lot of style over function out there.
  7. W. Rabbit is offline
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    heaven sent and hell bent but weapons clenched and well kept

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    Posted On:
    1/02/2013 8:27pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    But is that really what you're looking at when you see the video you posted there? Because the wrapping around the neck isn't fencing, nor is the cat stance with the sword back and the left palm forward. I think that CMA broadsword SHOULD be as you described it, but when you look around, it isn't, and there's a lot of style over function out there.
    My opinion is that this form is deceptively "stylish". The core of the form are such basic sword attacks, repeated and wrapped up in a form that like the title says "flows moon". It is a short form, easy to learn in a few months.

    The basic fencing techniques are mixed in with other elements most of which are designed to teach graceful use/handling of the weapon and moving it around the body masterfully (ie around the neck without cutting yourself).

    There is also much that can't be seen by video and this is how you can tell the difference between someone who just learned the form, versus someone who knows how to use the techniques.

    For instance the (first) cat stance with left hand forward... the blade is to be kept unseen by the opponent (kept just barely alongside the outside thigh), waiting to strike. That is a "hey check out what's in my left hand", and the next technique is a textbook thrust to the heart.

    But, as far as trying out the "stylized" movements in a real broadsword fight, hahahahhaha....as my sifu is fond of saying "If you stand in the street like that, you're gonna get killed".
    Last edited by W. Rabbit; 1/02/2013 8:48pm at .
  8. W. Rabbit is offline
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    heaven sent and hell bent but weapons clenched and well kept

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    Posted On:
    1/02/2013 8:55pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yep videos of actual dao/dadao techniques are ultra rare. I tried.

    I did find this one, which references what appears to be a Chinese Nationalist Army (1930s) manual on dadao techniques vs. bayonet.

    There is a lot of similarity to these techniques and the ones that can be extracted from hang yuet.

    Last edited by W. Rabbit; 1/02/2013 8:59pm at .
  9. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    1/03/2013 1:46am

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

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    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    My opinion is that this form is deceptively "stylish". The core of the form are such basic sword attacks, repeated and wrapped up in a form that like the title says "flows moon". It is a short form, easy to learn in a few months.
    I kinda wish CMA had a simple asterisk template or other standardized angle system like FMAs have, for weapon work especially. Broadsword motions I learned in CLF were described as their unarmed equivalent (jong, pek, gwa etc)

    The basic fencing techniques are mixed in with other elements most of which are designed to teach graceful use/handling of the weapon and moving it around the body masterfully (ie around the neck without cutting yourself).

    There is also much that can't be seen by video and this is how you can tell the difference between someone who just learned the form, versus someone who knows how to use the techniques.

    For instance the (first) cat stance with left hand forward... the blade is to be kept unseen by the opponent (kept just barely alongside the outside thigh), waiting to strike. That is a "hey check out what's in my left hand", and the next technique is a textbook thrust to the heart.
    I wouldn't describe not cutting your own neck, or using "hey look over there" as masterful. You'd have to articulate your wrist kind of funny to cut yourself there.

    The CLF followup to the blade back cat stance was usually a sidestep and a forehand across the abdomen, rather than a thrust to the heart. And/or a J cut/jong.

    In either case, I don't really approve of a weapon stance where the weapon is as far back as possible; it should usually be forward if you want to protect yourself or attack with it.

    But, as far as trying out the "stylized" movements in a real broadsword fight, hahahahhaha....as my sifu is fond of saying "If you stand in the street like that, you're gonna get killed".[/QUOTE]
  10. W. Rabbit is offline
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    heaven sent and hell bent but weapons clenched and well kept

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    Posted On:
    1/03/2013 9:46am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    I kinda wish CMA had a simple asterisk template or other standardized angle system
    All the hung ga weapon forms/techniques are broken down in 8 basic directions, if that's what you mean. We don't use a trigram pattern on the floor or anything, but those positions/movements are in there. The whole routine is basically those few basic sword attacks/defenses repeated in the 8 directions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    I wouldn't describe not cutting your own neck, or using "hey look over there" as masterful. You'd have to articulate your wrist kind of funny to cut yourself there.
    For a clumsy lug like myself, doing anything right with a dao is masterful. I don't train with a wushu dao either, mine is semisharpened steel so I've gotten a few close shaves due to my own carelessness. Instant karma.

    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    The CLF followup to the blade back cat stance was usually a sidestep and a forehand across the abdomen, rather than a thrust to the heart. And/or a J cut/jong.
    There are six of them in the hang yuet form. Again I don't think it's expected you'd ever use those movements in a fight. It is more of a "checkpoint" stance, really. I for one would never actually offer my unbladed hand for the enemy to chop off.

    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    In either case, I don't really approve of a weapon stance where the weapon is as far back as possible; it should usually be forward if you want to protect yourself or attack with it.
    It's definitely not a fighting stance or ready stance. For that, see the Dadao video ...the stances there are more like the practical hang yuet "ready stance".

    No dangling limbs or exposed leg, for sure.
    Last edited by W. Rabbit; 1/03/2013 9:54am at .
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