For The Devil

**mike321** · Posted On: 12/30/2012 12:46pm

Hungryjoe,

Welfare and entitlement spending outside of ssi and Medicare seem to be a state problem currently. The issue of income tax being carried by 50% of workers is a huge concern. I agree with the republicans it is not good but my conclusion is very different. I think the low wages of the 50% is symptoms of the free market or wages be subverted and manipulated. Retail sales is 1x min wage. When I was in high school it was 1.5 to 2x min wage. There is no upward pressure on wages over the long term. Recessions tend to freeze hiring not lower wages traditionally.

**hungryjoe** · Posted On: 12/30/2012 1:10pm

Originally Posted by mike321

Hungryjoe,

Welfare and entitlement spending outside of ssi and Medicare seem to be a state problem currently. The issue of income tax being carried by 50% of workers is a huge concern. I agree with the republicans it is not good but my conclusion is very different. I think the low wages of the 50% is symptoms of the free market or wages be subverted and manipulated. Retail sales is 1x min wage. When I was in high school it was 1.5 to 2x min wage. There is no upward pressure on wages over the long term. Recessions tend to freeze hiring not lower wages traditionally.

Well said and I have to agree with all of the above.

There are not enough people paying into vs. those taking out. There has to be a middle line and without spending cuts we are doomed to future economic collapse. Perhaps that's the game plan anyway.

**adskibullus** · Posted On: 12/30/2012 4:01pm

Originally Posted by hungryjoe

Well said and I have to agree with all of the above.

There are not enough people paying into vs. those taking out. There has to be a middle line and without spending cuts we are doomed to future economic collapse. Perhaps that's the game plan anyway.

What would anybody gain from economic collapse?

**mike321** · Posted On: 12/30/2012 4:19pm

Originally Posted by adskibullus

What would anybody gain from economic collapse?

I think it is what is gained now; not concern for the future. The wealth generation in the last 20 years has been immense. At the same time, A lot of benefits for the poor are indirect subsidies for corporations. Many working poor use government benefits or even receive money back on income tax. This is part of the wage problem in the US. You have corporations earning money from importing cheaply produced items, you have minimum wage workers (busting their butts by the way) that are consuming govt resources instead of paying taxes in their wages which in a free market should be higher. This wealth blinds major moneyed interests to the risks down the road.

**judoka_uk** · Posted On: 12/30/2012 4:25pm

Originally Posted by adskibullus

What would anybody gain from economic collapse?

About the same as they would from deliberately making the poor poorer...

**adskibullus** · Posted On: 12/30/2012 5:53pm

Originally Posted by judoka_uk

About the same as they would from deliberately making the poor poorer...

They want to make the general popation poorer so they can privatise the public sector and convince people that its the right thing to do.

Edited because I asked a stupid question then looked it up and realised how dumb it was.

**judoka_uk** · Posted On: 12/30/2012 6:30pm

Originally Posted by adskibullus

They want to make the general popation poorer so they can privatise the public sector and convince people that its the right thing to do.

What?

Come on, you're an intelligent bloke you don't really believe such silliness.

**mike321** · Posted On: 12/30/2012 6:46pm

Originally Posted by adskibullus

They want to make the general popation poorer so they can privatise the public sector and convince people that its the right thing to do.

Edited because I asked a stupid question then looked it up and realised how dumb it was.

The trend is to grow not shrink public sector. Also, blurring the public/private divide also seems to be a trend.

**judoka_uk** · Posted On: 12/30/2012 6:57pm

Originally Posted by mike321

The trend is to grow not shrink public sector. Also, blurring the public/private divide also seems to be a trend.

Except that the ideologues who have lied to Adskibullus are starting from a viewpoint of returning Britain to 1950 when the post war Socialist government nationalised everything from trucking to telecoms and mining to medicine.

In contrast to then, when the government owned and ran everything, in their warped world view, any step that isn't a step backwards to 50s and wholescale nationalisation is a step towards the mythical evil realm of privatisation.

**adskibullus** · Posted On: 12/30/2012 7:05pm

Originally Posted by judoka_uk

What?

Come on, you're an intelligent bloke you don't really believe such silliness.

To be honest I really don't know what to believe. I've probably been brain washed because several members if my family work in the public sector.

These cuts hit the poorest hardest which doesn't seem fair but let's face it there's no other choice really, we need big business investment which probably means lowering the tax that big business pays so we can try and intice investment therefore creating more jobs in the UK to raise more tax. It pulls on the heart strings to see the poverty that disabled family's and children with junkie parents live in buy if we don't act quickly we will all be poor when the UK goes bust.

My fear is that the cuts are very unpopular and that labour will get voted back in next election and ruin things again.