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  1. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    1/03/2013 12:45pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Tackles have also stopped more civilian shootings than flamethrowers and ray guns put together.
  2. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    My ray gun is powerful.
  3. Rivington is online now
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    Posted On:
    1/03/2013 2:34pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by DerAuslander View Post
    Irrelevant statistic is irrelevant.

    Would you rather risk closing on someone with a firearm and engaging them empty handed, or seek cover and return fire?
    On the contrary, it's the Imaginary Shooting that's irrelevant. You can imagine any number of possible scenarios where Y might work or X might—for example, you just summoned up some cover to seek out—or you can look at actually existing rampage shootings, and what tends stops them.

    Incidentally, going back to the source, of the shootings stopped by gun-wielding civilians:

    10/1/1997 - Luke Woodham put on a trench coat to conceal a hunting rifle and entered Pearl High School in Pearl, Mississippi. He killed 3 students before vice principal Joel Myrick apprehended him with a Colt .45 without firing.

    4/24/1998 - Andrew Wurst attended a middle school dance in Edinboro, Pennsylvania intent on killing a bully but shot wildly into the crowd. He killed 1 student. James Strand lived next door. When he heard the shots he ran over with his 12 gauge shotgun and apprehended the gunman without firing.

    1/16/2002 – Peter Odighizuwa opened fire with a handgun at The Appalachian School in Grundy, Virginia. 3 people were killed before the shooter was apprehended by 3 students, Mikael Gross, Ted Besen, and Tracy Bridges with handguns without firing.

    2/25/2005 – David Hernandez Arroyo Sr. opened fire on a public square from the steps of a courthouse in Tyler, Texas. The shooter was armed with a rifle and wearing body armor. Mark Wilson fired back with a handgun, hitting the shooter but not penetrating the armor. Mark drew the shooter’s fire, and ultimately drove him off, but was fatally wounded. Mark was the only death in this incident.

    12/9/2007 – Matthew J. Murray entered the Youth With A Mission training center in Arvada, Colorado and killed 2 people, then went to the New Life Church in Colorado Springs, Colorado killing 2 more. He was shot and injured by church member Jeanne Assam and commit suicide before police arrived.[Edge case—Assam was actually armed security, on alert.]

    4/22/2012 – Kiarron Parker opened fire in a church parking lot in Aurora, Colorado. The shooter killed 1 person before being shot and killed by a member of the congregation who was carrying concealed. [This is an edge case—the congregant was an off-duty cop.]

    Returning fire (most reports don't describe whether or not the counter-shooter sought cover first, though Assam doesn't appear to have taken cover) works about as well as just showing up with a gun and not firing at all. Tackling does work well, whether you believe it or not. The issue boils down to what sort of person engages in rampage shootings—generally, they're people who are nuts and easily tackled or dissuaded by physical courage.

    Now, why would examining the Imaginary Shooting in your head be more relevant than looking at actual shootings?
    Last edited by Rivington; 1/03/2013 2:49pm at .
  4. Rivington is online now
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    Posted On:
    1/03/2013 2:34pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by wetware View Post
    There's a better than average chance that that's because people aren't allowed to have guns in places where rampage shootings tend to occur.
    Better than average? Please show your work.
  5. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/03/2013 4:55pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivington View Post
    On the contrary, it's the Imaginary Shooting that's irrelevant. You can imagine any number of possible scenarios where Y might work or X might—for example, you just summoned up some cover to seek out—or you can look at actually existing rampage shootings, and what tends stops them.
    Um, no, fucktard. The tackle statistic is irrelevant.

    You wanna tackle a guy with a gun, be my guest. Go for it.

    Get your ass shot.

    Let's see the corralary statistic of people who actually tried to close with a given shooter and ended up getting shot.

    Got that one?
  6. Rivington is online now
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    Posted On:
    1/03/2013 5:31pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by DerAuslander View Post
    Um, no, fucktard. The tackle statistic is irrelevant.
    Saying something false twice doesn't make it true. Be less stupid.

    You wanna tackle a guy with a gun, be my guest. Go for it.

    Get your ass shot.
    Yes yes, people get their asses shot pulling a gun and firing back too. So do bystanders—indeed, sometimes a sufficient number of bystanders are shot to make a non-spree shooting seem like a spree shooting.

    But a surprising number of physical counter-attackers don't get shot, and some that do still manage to complete their own attack. probably, as I mentioned up top, because a lot of successful tackles take place in school shooting-settings. Schools have a fair number of people who practice tackles and takedowns a lot—football players, coaches, etc.—and because school shooters tend to be rather weak and pathetic physically.

    Let's see the corralary statistic of people who actually tried to close with a given shooter and ended up getting shot.

    Got that one?
    No, do you? If you don't—and you don't—feel free to apologize and them immediately STFU. While you're at it, give me the statistic of the number of people who are armed during a rampage shooting who don't end up using their guns. It happens, and sometimes thankfully so.

    If we're using the DA list as a source, we can see that the difference between a civilian tackle and a civilian with a gun (whether they fire or not, using a very expansive definition of civilian) is small: If you compare the average of people killed in shootings stopped by armed civilians and unarmed civilians you get 1.8 and 2.6 but that’s not nearly as significant as the difference between a proactive civilian, and a cowering civilian who waits for police. If tackling really led to people getting shot as invariably as you claim we would a) expect to see fewer successful tackles than we do and b) much higher body counts in tackle-stoppages. We don't.

    What we do see is this. Of the DA shootings: 14 are stopped either by police or shooter suicide. Eleven were stopped by unarmed civilians. Six were stopped by armed civilians (including security guards and off-duty cops), of which three never fire, and one who fired was shot and killed.

    So, of the fourteen stopped by cops or suicide—how many shooters gunned down people who tried to tackle them? Even if it was all fourteen—and it wasn't—tackling remains surprisingly effective.

    My point in actually a) digging up and b) looking at the source was to point out that one of the articles in the OP was making a claim not in evidence based on the source. If you want to take issue with that, go ahead, be exactly the sort of moron that people decry in the great rolling gun control debate: the guy who Knows What He Knows And Doesn't Need No Facts.
    Last edited by Rivington; 1/03/2013 5:56pm at .
  7. Rivington is online now
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    Posted On:
    1/03/2013 6:47pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Let's take a look at the shooters who were either stopped by police (shot or surrendered) or committed suicide:

    For Howard Unruh we have an extensive description of his shootings: no reported tackle/takedown attempts. One civilian did shoot at Unruh, to no effect. Unruh kept on walking and kept on shooting.

    James Huberty exchanged fire with an outmatched police officer but there are no reports of anyone in the restaurant trying to charge the man. He had over an hour in the restaurant before being taken down.

    George Hennars did shoot someone who tried to tackle him-a seventy-one year-old man. There was also the man's daughter, who reached into her purse for her gun, but who had left her piece in her car. This led to her running for office and advocating for more expansive concealed carry laws. From what I've read, it seems that the elderly man's attempted tackle enabled the daughter and some others to escape.

    The Columbine shooting is another for which we have an extensive breakdown of the killings: no attempts at tackling; the shooters exchanged fire with police at several points to no effect.

    Mark Barton: no report of attempted tackles. He was able to walk from building to building, past the police who had been called, unnoticed by them.

    Salvador Tapia: no reports of attempted tackles. Doesn't sound like there was much room for anything, as the shooting took place in "a maze of crates and 55-gallon drums. So when Tapia walked in and started shooting, police said he had effectively cornered all those inside." The police themselves had problems navigating the area.

    Weise: Jeffrey May, a 16-year-old sophomore, tried to wrestle Weise inside the classroom, and stabbed him in the stomach with a pencil.[6] His diversion allowed students to flee the classroom to safety, but Weise shot May two times in the neck and once in the jaw, leaving him injured, though not fatally. Let's call this one a draw.

    Virginia Tech: another extensive breakdown. No attempted tackles—no surprise as Cho was in the hallway and shooting mostly into the classroom entrances. Several people were saved by a faculty member blocking a door with his body.

    Zamora: no reports of attempted tackles. First victim was a police officer. Some victims were killed while Zamora was in a vehicle, and indeed some were shot while driving their own vehicles. It is possible that someone Zamora encountered while on-foot tried to tackle him, but there's no report of it.

    Stewart: old age home shooter—nobody in any shape to tackle (many were shot in bed or in wheelchairs). Nurse Jerry Avant was shot twenty-seven times, but not for closing with the shooter; he was bringing patients into a secure room and moving a couch in front of the door to blockade the room.

    Jiverly Wong: no reports of tackling.

    Hasan: claim above that two people were shot while charging Hasan. A third man threw a table and was shot, but survived. Hasan also managed to outshoot one civilian police officer, wounding her and removing her gun, before being shot himself by a second one.

    James Holmes: no attempt at tackling-likely difficult given the theater layout and the smoke bomb.

    Lanza: Sandy Hook principal Dawn Hochsprung and school psychologist Mary Sherlach came running into the hall, and Lanza shot them both. Were these two running to physically confront Lanza, or just to check out what the noise was when Lanza gained entry by shooting up a security door? Hard to say—these would be the first two female attempted tacklers that we know of if so. I'm tempted to count against.


    So, it seems that we can count four failed tackles, leading to three deaths. We can also count a sacrifice tackle that led to a kid being shot—but he likely would have been shot anyway–and that helped save lives while not quite stopping the shooter. We can also count two failed civilian shooting, and a number of failed police shootings and confrontations, including one police injury and one police death.We also have one case of a shooter killing his police officer grandfather to gain access to weapon, police car, and vest. This on top of the one of the armed civilian stoppages that led to private citizen Mark Wilson sadly dying while trying to shoot at a rampager in body armor.

    I'm seeing more successful tackles than failed tackles. I'm also seeing a number of hidden police failures in the set of shooters eventually brought down either by police or via suicide when the police show up.
    Last edited by Rivington; 1/03/2013 7:08pm at .
  8. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/04/2013 8:27am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You still don't get it.

    Go ahead and fucking advocate for unarmed responses against firearms.

    The tackling statistic is irrelevant.

    Would you rather close and tackle an unarmed gunman or take cover an return fire?
  9. Rivington is online now
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    Posted On:
    1/04/2013 11:13am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DerAuslander View Post
    You still don't get it.
    No, you don't get it.

    Go ahead and fucking advocate for unarmed responses against firearms.
    Never did that, moron. I pointed out the simple fact that Actually Existing Rampage Shootings are often stopped by people who are unarmed. Facts are never irrelevant.

    The tackling statistic is irrelevant.
    Idiot repeats untruth three times.


    Would you rather close and tackle an unarmed gunman or take cover an return fire?
    Idiot makes third appeal to Imaginary Shooting. Idiot is so annoyed that reality doesn't conform neatly to his own beliefs that he even summons up the spectre of an "unarmed gunman" (LOL). Unarmed, unarmed, people might be unarmed! But yes, Fuckleberry, I'd love to tackle an unarmed gunman! Especially if all he is doing is pointing his finger and going "Pow! Pow!"

    Your fantasy is irrelevant—is there cover, or will you be on the courthouse steps or in the vestibule of a large church, as two of the people who returned fire were? When you run for it and get shot in the back on the way, what happens? When you run for it and find that the cover is already protecting seven people who squawk and scream, "Don't shoot us!" when they see your sidearm, what happens? Or when one of them tries to tackle you, thinking you're the shooter, because you're white and bald and funny-looking like the kid from Arizona? When you hunker down and the shooter's bullets go right through your cover, as happened to the cop who first encountered Huberty, what happens? When you seek cover and end up in the line of fire of the second shooter, because Columbine shows that sometimes there is more than one, what happens?

    See, anyone can play the game of Imaginary Shooting. You're just playing the simple version where you're in a good place to get to appropriate cover against a single shooter who isn't terribly overpowered. You can just as easily play the simple version where you turn a corner and are behind the guy and can jump on him, or the simple version where he bursts into a room and you're sitting behind the teacher's desk right by the door, or the simple version where you're all in one small conference sitting across from the shooter and the one in the same place where you're sitting on the left side of the shooter, and the one where you're sitting on the right side of the shooter.


    There are an infinite number of Imaginary Shooting games. In reality, we're not seeing many Actually Existing Shootings where there is a lot of time and space for someone to get to cover and return fire. We are seeing a fair number of shootings where time and space and the population involved finds physical courage fruitful for saving lives, whether the people intervening are armed or not. And that's the message that should get out, because when people wait for the cops—or can sadly do nothing but wait for the cops if the local environment is against them (like in the dark, smoke-filled, packed "gun free" movie theater in the Aurora shooting) more people die.

    Here's another Simple Imaginary Shooting: you forgot your gun that day, or had it relieved from you somehow. Say, in a courthouse. What do you do? Seek cover, pull out your phone, and send the Libertarian Party ten dollars via Paypal?

    The only real takeaway one can get from looking at Actually Existing Rampage Shootings is that doing something is better than doing nothing. Have a gun? Go for it! Don't have one? Looks like you should probably go for it anyway, because the cops aren't going to show up in time. That this simple conclusion makes you piss your saffron panties has little to do with me, or what you imagine I advocate.
    Last edited by Rivington; 1/04/2013 11:23am at .
  10. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/04/2013 11:15am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Grandma; Mom and Dad are fighting again.
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