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  1. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    5/22/2013 6:19pm

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Last summer while I was out hiking, I got to see a raven carry a rat high into the air, then use the ground as an anvil to drop it to its death. I hear seagulls have figured out to use concrete to break open mollusk shells like this. From this I can surmise that bird anatomy evolved for judo.
  2. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    5/22/2013 6:43pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    You're thinking like a 21st century human here.

    In evolutionary time scales the modern Caribbean, Southeast Asia, and South America didn't exist as separate things, and all those land masses were one supercontinent, so whatever pre-Human species lived there that eventually ended up as Homo Sapiens in West Africa spent much of its early evolution on Pangaea (about 100M years worth).

    For all we know, we grew fists to help us crack open early cocopineapplegrapefruitnuts, or some other fleshy, tendrilled, spiked monstrosity of a paleozoic melon.

    To your point, West Africa was right in the middle of Pangaea so it would make sense whatever evolutionary processes were going on back then, could have been centralized there (West Africa's predecessor was literally the crossroads of the old super continent), which could be why the most advanced species eventually emerged from the remnants of that region and not others.

    I'm quoting this again to say that this was a reply to the first sentence of what I said, but then ignored the other paragraphs that describe human evolution.
  3. Devil is offline
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    His heart was visible, and the dismal sack that maketh excrement of what is eaten.

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    Posted On:
    5/22/2013 7:06pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by OwlMatt View Post
    I think you're misunderstanding that line. Saying aggressive behavior no longer serves an evolutionary purpose is not the same thing as saying that aggressive behavior is no longer called for. Remember, the same guy who you're quoting said, only a few lines above that, "The bottom line is that women need to fight and defend themselves too."

    What he means when he says that aggressive behavior no longer serves an evolutionary purpose is that humans, for the most part, are no longer being naturally selected according to their capacity for aggressive behavior. The wimps are having babies just as fast as the badasses.
    I didn't misunderstand anything. Aggressiveness, along with intelligence is and always will be a factor in natural selection.

    Anyway, I'm pretty sure my hands evolved for jerking off.
    Last edited by Devil; 5/22/2013 7:14pm at .
  4. OwlMatt is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/22/2013 7:29pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Devil View Post
    I didn't misunderstand anything. Aggressiveness, along with intelligence is and always will be a factor in natural selection.

    Anyway, I'm pretty sure my hands evolved for jerking off.
    Click image for larger version. 

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  5. W. Rabbit is offline
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    You know me...the snakebite hiss, the Devil's Grip, the Iron Fist

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    Posted On:
    5/22/2013 8:29pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    I consider that a compliment.
    Your time scales are very, very off. The human story happens well after Pangaea or or other supercontinents.
    That depends on your perspective. The human story technically starts with primordial ooze.

    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    I think its safe to assume that the fist doesn't predate the hand, so speculating about a rat paw curled into a fist for smashing food is kinda silly.
    Not if you think about how hands developed over millions of years, with the tree shrew (our ancestor rat) growing bigger and bigger, surviving more enemies, and changing his diet from cracking nuts, to fruit, and so on until millions of years later he is a monkey smashing bananas open with hands.

    The OP question as I read it was: was it normal for pre/early humans to punch things and did that activity result in 21st century man's fist, today.

    I personally don't buy it unless we can also find its happened before in another species in the same way. That's my personal burden of proof for the idea that the fist is for punching.

    It seems natural selection should show lots of species punching, if it were so damn effective, right? I don't know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    120 million years ago is still after Pangaea.
    Yes it is. Pangaea is kind of a tangent, I admit.

    What I'm interested in is what else nature uses a "fist", or anything like it. Primates use them, humans use them, what else?

    Now look at this cute little proto-monkey, and tell me you don't relate.

    Last edited by W. Rabbit; 5/22/2013 8:48pm at .
  6. W. Rabbit is offline
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    You know me...the snakebite hiss, the Devil's Grip, the Iron Fist

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    Posted On:
    5/22/2013 9:06pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ok...so wherever you look in nature where some animal has developed prehensile hands, they are for holding on to stuff or getting into stuff like you see with lemurs and monkeys, etc.

    I've thought of one exception so far beside the animals mentioned in the OP article.

    Kangaroos have prehensile hands AND they "box". AND Humans and marsupials happen to be related from around the 150M BC.

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0715090413.htm

    So here we have hands being used for striking its own species, being used to impress females for sexual reproduction...

    Maybe I am wrong...maybe the human fist DID evolve for men to hit other men...and steal/woo their women and lands? Now that a I re-read the article in the OP that does seem to be what they are claiming...and it too seems reasonable.



    You be the judge.
    Last edited by W. Rabbit; 5/22/2013 9:17pm at .
  7. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    5/22/2013 11:54pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Billions of shattered fourth metacarpals bemoan their own evolution.

    RE kangaroos: I had a professor who used to be a zookeeper, and one day someone mentioned kangaroos. She went on a rant about how kangaroos are assholes, and they'll fight you whenever you go into their cage for whatever reason. Anyway, the modus operandi of t3h r34l kangaroo combat is to use the arms to restrain/clinch, then use the legs to claw (using the tail to stabilize). This can lead to some really long, nasty cuts. If you watch that video with this in mind, you'll kinda see that they're not clinching to avoid being punched hard the way people do. They're trying to get into leg-clawing range.
    Last edited by Permalost; 5/22/2013 11:59pm at .
  8. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    5/23/2013 12:17am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    That depends on your perspective. The human story technically starts with primordial ooze.
    No wait, it starts when the Earth first started to cool and the moon became a separate entity!

    No wait, it starts when the first heavy elements form, making planets possible!

    No wait, it starts when the four fundamental forces start to separate!

    No wait, its from when the Demiurge opened his FIST, allowing the singularity to expand! THE FIST IS THE KEY TO IT ALL!!!

    But really, I don't think there's any reason this should extend into the time of supercontinents is all. Hell, if you wanna go that far back we might as well talk about if any dinosaurs punched each other. Actually, since we already had this thread once I'd approve of repurposing this the Did Dinosaurs Punch thread if you feel like doing the research.


    Not if you think about how hands developed over millions of years, with the tree shrew (our ancestor rat) growing bigger and bigger, surviving more enemies, and changing his diet from cracking nuts, to fruit, and so on until millions of years later he is a monkey smashing bananas open with hands.
    I'd also consider this: threat and combative displays and hunting methods among the species you're looking through. Its a different approach than looking at whether a closed appendage is used as a utility hammer, but I think its more to the point of what we're talking about. I mean, if its a carnivore, the way it goes about using its body to kill things every day seems like a better starting point, and/or using social violence examples in pack animals where they're not trying to kill each other. If you do your approach, you'd still have to use this one afterwards anyway, once you determine FIST: Yes or No?

    The OP question as I read it was: was it normal for pre/early humans to punch things and did that activity result in 21st century man's fist, today.

    I personally don't buy it unless we can also find its happened before in another species in the same way. That's my personal burden of proof for the idea that the fist is for punching.
    I think the author's approach at studying morphology etc has more merit than just seeing if its happened before. Yes, that would provide more evidence if that were seen, but don't you see that humans are quite anomalous primates? I mean, if that's your personal burden of proof, do you accept that all human traits are found elsewhere?

    It seems natural selection should show lots of species punching, if it were so damn effective, right? I don't know.
    Then why don't you see more mostly hairless incredibly intelligent but physically weak bipedal primates that utilize language and culture and reality TV?
  9. Vieux Normand is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/23/2013 10:39am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    ...they're not clinching to avoid being punched hard the way people do. They're trying to get into leg-clawing range.
    Velociraptors taught kangaroo ancestors this.

    The marsupials, however, made sure not to teach the clawed-hoppers how to duck asteroids.

    Score one for mammals.
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