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  1. Styygens is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/17/2012 7:46am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by battlefields View Post
    Also, a quick question to gun owners, when was the last time you engaged in training with your local militia? Do you have a local militia? Is it well regulated? How is it regulated?
    Having met some people who belonged to a modern, organized, local militia, I recognize this as a loaded question...

    That said, regarding the US legal definition of a "militia":
    US v. Miller (1939) -
    The signification attributed to the term Militia appears from the debates in the Convention, the history and legislation of Colonies and States, and the writings of approved commentators. These show plainly enough that the Militia comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense. "A body of citizens enrolled for military discipline." And further, that ordinarily when called for service these men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time.
    See: http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=search&linkurl=<%LINKURL%>&graphu rl=<%GRAPHURL%>&court=US&case=/data/us/153/535.html

    Lots of Gun Control advocates like to emphasize the "well-regulated militia" language in the 2nd Amendment. The resulting argument is that the 2nd Amendment does not guarantee individuals the right to keep and bear arms, but rather that the amendment guarantees some sort of "collective right" in the militia. The counter to this argument is that the Bill of Rights, the first ten amendments and specifically the first eight or nine, was intended to protect the rights of individuals -- such as freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom from unreasonable search and seizure, rights to due process, trial by jury, etc...

    The context of the Second Amendment would strongly suggest that the right to bear arms is another individual right. And, it could be argued, that as the right is linked to the ability of individuals to form a militia, the intent seems to be that citizens have access to military-type weapons! The Second Amendment says nothing about guaranteeing the right to own weapons sufficient to hunt.

    The AR-type rifle used in this massacre is the most popular rifle in the US right now. (And BTW, it is used for hunting in some places.) Thousands of them are owned privately. How many of them were used for evil on Friday? I don't have numbers, but I suspect it was less than 1%. Now, compare that to the number of rifles that were used responsibly that day. Yes, some gun owners are... quirky; but they are a generally a responsible bunch.

    I don't have a good answer to the problem of violence in America. But I do know the answer isn't to blame inanimate objects. A gun lying on a table could sit there for a hundred years, it will do nothing until somone picks it up and pulls the trigger. The problem is with the black hearts of some men, and our lack of care of the disturbed and despairing. And yes, I think the 24-hour news cycle only glorifies these tragedies. People intent on doing harm will find a way to do it.
  2. Nefron is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/17/2012 8:05am


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Styygens View Post
    I don't have a good answer to the problem of violence in America. But I do know the answer isn't to blame inanimate objects. A gun lying on a table could sit there for a hundred years, it will do nothing until somone picks it up and pulls the trigger. The problem is with the black hearts of some men, and our lack of care of the disturbed and despairing. And yes, I think the 24-hour news cycle only glorifies these tragedies. People intent on doing harm will find a way to do it.
    Would you have a problem with people owning military weapons like automatic shotguns, machine guns, anti tank weapons or some of those scary Russian thermobaric flamethrowers?

    By your logic, weapons won't do any evil by themselves, and that is true.
  3. ermghoti is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/17/2012 8:15am

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    Quote Originally Posted by battlefields View Post
    America will never recover from the excessive arming of its citizens, not by gun control, anyway. You're fucking doomed, there's naught that can be done in that regard.
    Doomed? We lose more lives to drownings in buckets than public mass shootings.

    Quick, without Google, somebody tell me which of the recent shootings were stopped by a citizen legally carrying a concealed pistol, and what his name is.
    Quote Originally Posted by strikistanian View Post
    DROP SEIONAGI ************! Except I don't know Judo, so it doesn't work, and he takes my back.
  4. erezb is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/17/2012 8:23am


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    Quote Originally Posted by RandomTriangle View Post
    You don't need a gun to hurt children if you really want to.


    http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2...ck-school.html


    im not saying that incident was AS bad, just saying where there is a will there is a way
    I actually wanted to bring that as an example of how a gun augments violence. Not one of those kids died.
  5. erezb is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/17/2012 8:31am


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    Quote Originally Posted by Dickhead View Post
    I can't imagine what the parents of those children are going through. This is a horrible tragedy.
    And unfortunately, people are going to use this to try to push gun control. I'd much rather have teachers being able to carry concealed. Some evil lunatic deadset on hurting innocent children isn't going to worry about legally obtaining weapons if he's planning do something as despicable as what happened yesterday. But if teachers were encouraged to carry concealed weapons, these kinds of tragedies could be avoided, or at least minimized. That or armed security guards, but I'm sure that most schools don't have the budget for this.
    Really? Look, i like guns, and i do understand that it is people misusing guns that are to blame, However do you really think a teacher should carry a gun in class? that is just stupid, sorry.
    Why not have an armed guard in the entrance of the school that checks people? Or better yet, make it harder for people to own a gun. Make the punishments for misplacing a gun harsh enough to make people think 10 times before buying one etc.
  6. Styygens is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/17/2012 8:31am


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    Quote Originally Posted by Nefron View Post
    Would you have a problem with people owning military weapons like automatic shotguns, machine guns, anti tank weapons or some of those scary Russian thermobaric flamethrowers?

    By your logic, weapons won't do any evil by themselves, and that is true.
    People (in the US) can own automatic weapons and a number of destructive devices (e.g. explosives) if they are willing and able to pay the exorbitant tax stamp and obtain the correct license. I'm sure someone on BS.net has paid and been licensed and can describe the process better than me.

    It might be interesting to know the statistics on the use of legally-owned machine guns in the commission of a crime.

    Of course, your reductio ad absurdum argument should properly include a nuclear warhead. Certainly there comes a point when the potential benefit of a privately owned weapon is outweighed by the public danger of misuse. I, personally, am willing to place nuclear devices in this category; but not small arms. I am not ignoring the "well-regulated" language in the Second Amendment.
  7. RandomTriangle is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/17/2012 8:33am


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    Look at how many more kids die from obesity than gun violence. I would post the numbers myself but they are so crazy I don't think you'd believe them
  8. Scrapper is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/17/2012 8:40am

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    I posted all the US murder stats in the armory, you know.

    9300 murders with guns in 2010 in the US. That is half as many as dead by STD's.

    Firearms murder is .39% of preventable death in the US. "gun control" is a red herring. The US murder rate is 85th in the world (Smack in the middle) but our suicide rate is 11th. 90 people committed suicide in the US on Friday, but only one made the news.

    The problem is mental health, not guns.
    And lo, Kano looked down upon the field and saw the multitudes. Amongst them were the disciples of Uesheba who were greatly vexed at his sayings. And Kano spake: "Do not be concerned with the mote in thy neighbor's eye, when verily thou hast a massive stick in thine ass".

    --Scrolls of Bujutsu: Chapter 5 vs 10-14.
  9. Nefron is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/17/2012 8:51am


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Styygens View Post
    People (in the US) can own automatic weapons and a number of destructive devices (e.g. explosives) if they are willing and able to pay the exorbitant tax stamp and obtain the correct license. I'm sure someone on BS.net has paid and been licensed and can describe the process better than me.
    Interesting, I didn't know that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Styygens View Post
    Of course, your reductio ad absurdum argument should properly include a nuclear warhead. Certainly there comes a point when the potential benefit of a privately owned weapon is outweighed by the public danger of misuse. I, personally, am willing to place nuclear devices in this category; but not small arms. I am not ignoring the "well-regulated" language in the Second Amendment.
    Well, yes, that was the argument. The question is where do you draw the line, and everybody has a different answer.

    I personally don't know what to think.
  10. Devil is offline
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    His heart was visible, and the dismal sack that maketh excrement of what is eaten.

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    Posted On:
    12/17/2012 9:17am

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    Quote Originally Posted by battlefields View Post
    America will never recover from the excessive arming of its citizens, not by gun control, anyway. You're fucking doomed, there's naught that can be done in that regard.

    It is time to employ sentry guards at every block, two at every school, institute or more at places of higher assembly. Keep your guns, but be prepared to have uncle Sam up your date at every corner. Law abiding citizens should have no concerns, because you are law abiding citizens.

    Of course, we all know how that kind of authority plays out when implemented, ahem, TSA.

    Also, a quick question to gun owners, when was the last time you engaged in training with your local militia? Do you have a local militia? Is it well regulated? How is it regulated?
    I disagree with your bleak assessment, of course. But you're right that gun control won't change anything. There are enough guns in America to have nonstop massacres for hundreds of years even if gun production ceased instantly. So your choices are to accept the shootings as a price of freedom or look for other solutions. Confiscation is not an option nor is outright banning of all or most guns. Prohibition of alcohol didn't go so well here. Prohibition of guns would be infinitely worse.

    As for your point about the TSA, I think that's a weak example of a government overstepping their authority. I fly quite a bit. I find the post 9-11 security measures to be effective and fairly unobtrusive. You have the occasional viral video of some little kid getting frisked but that type of **** is uncommon, especially considering the number of daily air travelers in the U.S. I have no problem taking my shoes off and sending my bags through an x-ray.

    The threat now is no different than it was pre 9-11. The difference is that we understand the threat better now and are more prepared to deal with it. It's true there is a fine line between reasonable security and intrusion. We have to continuously have those discussions. We can't afford to stick our heads in the sand and ignore the threat.

    Now it's time for the discussion about school security. Again, the threat hasn't changed but our understanding of the threat has. Honestly, I'm surprised it hasn't happened before now. It's been on my mind since 9-11 because what's more terrifying than the fear of your children being murdered?

    The lazy way out on this issue is to start swinging the ban hammer. The law didn't fail here. How many dozens of laws did this guy break before he even pulled the trigger? He wasn't even old enough to by a handgun. The hard way here is to look for effective ways of preventing this in the future instead of kneejerking and going nuts with gun control. More gun laws will just leave a bunch of smug politicians jerking themselves off about what they did to make kids safer while the kids will remain sitting ducks at school.
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