A Prayer

[Vieux Normand]

Vieux, your post is so big that trying to respond crashes the webpage. IDK why, but I won't be able to quote you so I'm going to try to keep this quick:

1)Powers in Europe treat peacful protestors like ****.

Yep, they sic attack dogs against civil-rights protestors peacefully marching on bridges ev-a-ree time. Oh wait..../tu quoque.

See Spain, Itally, France.

Umm, from where I am, that's pretty easy, thanks.

Not a democratic socialist utopia of understanding and enlightenment.

Good thing, 'cause "democratic" and "socialist" are oxymoronic from my perspective. Outside of the cities, France is very conservative. Ditto much of Europe. During my visits to west-o'-the-pond, I've found my views more conservative than those of a great many North Americans, despite the numbers of them who, upon hearing I'm European, automatically (and hilariously) assume I'm some sort of Marxist.

2) I am not David Ickle. I'm not even Alex Jones. The elite are not lizards (I hope?) but they are dangerously out of touch and are now threatening our basic freedoms of life liberty and the pursuit of happiness via over criminalisation. This applies to far more mundane pursuits than firearms ownership BTW.

This behaviour on the part of politicians is nothing new...except perhaps in your country. In older nations, such is a matter of record. We ignore it.

3) "Eternal vigilence is the price of liberty" - Wendell Philips, who you would call "paranoid". The rest of the quote from his speech is pretty cool too. Think you'd dig it:
http://www.bartleby.com/73/1073.html

Many thanks for the link. I've already read Philips, and the quote is well-known. I was implying that, instead of getting all hyped up about the doings of politicians, one can either turf them from office (by whatever means) or just don't pay any attention to them whatsoever.

4) There is no war on right now. Why would I want to go on a suicide mission that would only lend credibility to the states increasingly disturbing paranoia? This brings us to...

But...but TRAITORS are trying to imprison you!!! How can you say there's no war? What kind of patriot are you?

5) You want to know how easy it is to be branded and "enemy of the state" right now?
http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com...ou-on-dhs.html

Dude, I'm identitaire, a far-right designation which very likely places me on every watch-list in the EU. That's how easy it is. Ask me if I give a half a ****.

No, they will NOT be arming any civilians. They most cerainly want every pleb dissarmed ASAP
If you're not up to speed on the severity of the situation you should not be arguing this subject.

What I'm up to speed on are the impossible logistics of trying to disarm every civilian in such a large area. They just...can't...do it.

5)You wan't to be a fellon that's fine. But you're telling me basically, that instead of fighting to preserve our rights we should risk ten years in supermax and a $250,000 fine for possesing things we legally purchased. Like I said, mind your own effing business!

I can offer opinions on anything I want, and of you don't like it, that's yours to deal with. The likelihood that reprimanding or imprisoning every suddenly-illegal weapon-owner across such a vast land is within the logistical capability of a government is virtually nil. They cannot do it.

6) They can't round up every gun. But they can ruin the lives of millions trying. That's what we don't want to see happen, and that scenario is what has some people fighting mad already.

They do not have the capability of ruining that many lives without significant cooperation from the citizenry in question.

7)Arms are in the hands of the populace today. There are those who are actively trying to take them away tomorrow.

Ditto.

Should that happen we would not have the power to defend amendments 4-9 of the BOR.

They don't have the resources.

These are the very ones actively being stomped on by congress and the executive branch since 9/11/2001, with increasing severity and abusiveness. The ONLY thing slowing dow the march of fascism is the fact that we can fight back, so they must take baby steps.

What is slowing things down are complex logistics and the possibility that those trying to pull this off might get voted out of office...and not by Bushmasters.

But they are growing impatient, hence the big push (pusch?)...

It's "putsch". You're welcome.

8) "Han Exceptionalism" (of a sort) is what forced the revolution that birthed this nation to begin with. That revolution BTW was fought by only 3% of the people. Gun owners now account for at least 33% of the U.S. How good of an idea would it be to poke that hornets nest? Just saying...

So why the Great Fear of being disarmed by such a relatively-weak government?

9)China plans 50-100 years ahead. When they say they are looking to invade, they are talking about in my childrens lifetime. You're looking at China 2013. China is looking ahead to 2060. That threat is very, VERY real. They don't even try to hide it. They speak of it openly. EDJUCATE YOURSELF!

Empires rise. Just as surely, they fall. If you'd educated yourself--or if you came from an older nation--you'd know this simple fact.

10) Cartels get their weapons from the very organs of state which would confiscate our own.
http://issues.oversight.house.gov/fastandfurious/
So, the government is actively arming militarized gangs which make daily incursions across our borders killing civilians on both sides, while simultaneously pushing to take away our ability to defend ourselves from those militarized gangs. (Which control organized crime networks throughout the country)

See what I mean by "treason"?

Then you understand my point re: how easy it is to procure black-markey weaponry, in Europe or anywhere else on the planet. The links between those in power and certain types of merchants is nothing new.

11)Amendment number two means that checks an ballances will be applied via force of arms if necesary. For some reason it appears that some in power would like to take it that far.

"Applied via force of arms" by who? You know as well as I do that those in power will simply interpret constitutional writings to their advantage.

12) The Weimar comparisson had to do with the loss of liberty, privacy and basic human rights in an emerging police state. Watching our nation march in lockstep towards similar ends is well, "disturbing".

The Nazis were elected via, among other things, scaring the German populace about the growing communist threat and theories about "racial undesirables".

13)I like to go down in nightclubs but to each their own...

Long as I don't have to listen to any autotune.

14)The will of the people is wholly irrelevant to the powers that be.

Where I'm from, the reverse is also true.

So bad that even fence sitting moderates are starting to take notice and buy rifles and survival grub. It's kind of scary, really.

Aw c'mon--it's a business opportunity. Sell arms, sell rounds, sell safety courses.

15)The third world comment was about our deteriorating standards of living and the loss of human rights, but go on Captain Racist!

Sure, captain politically-correct. On what topic?

16)I specifically asked that question because it as repetitious and fallacious as the questions you are asking me regarding the preservation and exercise of natural rights. You might as well ask me why I support municipal sewer systems.

Meh. That's a problem for city-folk.

Just out of curriosity, WTH kind of bears do you have in Normandy that a 12 gauge isn't enough BOOM for them? Remind me never to carry jerky in your nature parks! YEESH!

Better read that again. I specifically referred to hiking on your side of the pond. Been everywhere from northern Ontario to the Yukon. The jerky in Normandy's nature parks isn't the best idea in any case: the wild boar mass at least twice a person's weight, and that's just the immature ones.

[Devil]

In case you didn't know Alan Colmes is an asshat, allow me to educate you.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alan-c...b_2377291.html

Here's the juicy part:

"Feinstein's sensible proposal, par in almost every other civilized nation, calls for banning the sale, transfer, importation or manufacturing of military-style weapons and doing the same for magazines than can accept more than 10 rounds. And the 1994 assault weapon ban gets more teeth. But the Feinstein bill doesn't just go after gun owners; it also protects them by grandfathering weapons legally owned at the time her proposed law would be enacted. Grandfathered weapons would be subject to registration and background checks on the owners and any transferees. "

Why, thank you Mrs. Feinstein for trying to protect me! You're so thoughtful that you want to protect me by making my legally purchased guns legal when you **** on my way of life by taking away a huge chunk of my gun rights. I am forever in your debt! And thank you, Alan for helping me understand how much Senator Feinstein wants to protect me in my butthole.

[Mr. Machette]

tu quoque.

How so? It's an example in counter to your point. Oh hell...

"I know you are but what am I?"

You happy now?

Umm, from where I am, that's pretty easy, thanks.

Great!

Good thing, 'cause "democratic" and "socialist" are oxymoronic from my perspective. Outside of the cities, France is very conservative. Ditto much of Europe. During my visits to west-o'-the-pond, I've found my views more conservative than those of a great many North Americans, despite the numbers of them who, upon hearing I'm European, automatically (and hilariously) assume I'm some sort of Marxist.

O.k., I gotta ask. What points to you find yourself more conservative on?

(I just got to ask because there's some real moobat mo-fo's over here and I wanna know where they're not adding up.)

This behaviour on the part of politicians is nothing new...except perhaps in your country. In older nations, such is a matter of record. We ignore it.

Is that what you were doing in the summer of 1789?

Many thanks for the link. I've already read Philips, and the quote is well-known. I was implying that, instead of getting all hyped up about the doings of politicians, one can either turf them from office (by whatever means) or just don't pay any attention to them whatsoever.

I preffer the voting thing. Ignoring it is dangerous.

How can you say there's no war?

Um, because there's no civil war right now?

You fucking daft or something? Your inflamtory rhetoric sound pretty stupid from where I'm sitting.

Dude, I'm identitaire, a far-right designation which very likely places me on every watch-list in the EU. That's how easy it is. Ask me if I give a half a ****.

Ooh, good for you! Would you like a cookie?

What I'm up to speed on are the impossible logistics of trying to disarm every civilian in such a large area. They just...can't...do it.

The usual suspects look like they're going to try. You really think they are smart people? Look at the **** these joker have voted into law and get back to me on weather or not you think they've analyzed it from you're point of view...

I can offer opinions on anything I want, and of you don't like it, that's yours to deal with. The likelihood that reprimanding or imprisoning every suddenly-illegal weapon-owner across such a vast land is within the logistical capability of a government is virtually nil. They cannot do it..

Before offering an opinion you might want to actually read the bill being proposed.

At least then it would be an informed opinion...

They do not have the capability of ruining that many lives without significant cooperation from the citizenry in question.

One post you claim that the government is untopable with all their bitching war toys.

The next they are impotent fuddy duddies who couldn't kick down a single door at 4am because it's past their bedtime.

You can;t have it both ways. Wh



Ditto.

They don't have the resources.

Lack of resources has never stopped congress from doing anything stupid and costly.

What is slowing things down are complex logistics and the possibility that those trying to pull this off might get voted out of office...and not by Bushmasters.

Yup, voted out by bushmaster owners. Who don't want to be made criminals by the whim of an ignorant hypocritical few (who are paid out of our pockets BTW).

It's "putsch". You're welcome.

danke

So why the Great Fear of being disarmed by such a relatively-weak government?

Who gets to be the sacrificial lamb in your weird fantasy dude? Just roll the dice and figure chances favor someone else getting to be the legal precedent. Who gets a ride through the justice sytem for no action of their own at all? Who would you throw under the bus for your smug sense of security?

No level of injustice is tollerable in a civilised society. None.

Empires rise. Just as surely, they fall. If you'd educated yourself--or if you came from an older nation--you'd know this simple fact.

What point are you even trying to make here?

You think you could go one post without contradicting yourself.

For all you're effite condescension and pretentious airs you really are dumb as ****.

Then you understand my point re: how easy it is to procure black-markey weaponry, in Europe or anywhere else on the planet. The links between those in power and certain types of merchants is nothing new.

Dumbfuck, when I purchase a gun I do the paperwork, clear the check and pay the tax. Just like a hundred million other people who are smarter than to risk buying anything high-dollar on the black market.

You do a lot of "black market business" Vieux? Do you have even an inkling of what you are talking about? Who you are talking about "casually dealing" with?

Go buy a case of AK's on your "black market" and get back to me. That is if you don't get busted in a sting or murdered by arms dealers who would rather have you cash and keep their guns.

Stupid Vieux. Really, really stupid.

"Applied via force of arms" by who? You know as well as I do that those in power will simply interpret constitutional writings to their advantage.

What point are you trying to make? Who overthrew those "empires" you're talking about?

Please, tell me because "we don't have history classes or books in this country".

"The Nazis were elected via, among other things, scaring the German populace about the growing communist threat and theories about "racial undesirables". .

You mean like the "terrorist" threat and political dissidents?

How do you not see parallels? People like you are the reason **** gets so bad that when people finally pull their heads out of the sand it's too late and they are already trapped.

Aw c'mon--it's a business opportunity. Sell arms, sell rounds, sell safety courses.

The ability to pursue that business is under attack as we speak.

If you don't know the legislation being proposed you should stop trying to sound like you have some authoritative outlook on it's possible effects.

Sure, captain politically-correct. On what topic?

I say I don't want our country to degrade to thrid world status (regarding living standards).

And your reaction was "The Muslims won't move her because they can't tollerate the weather".

Kooky.

Meh. That's a problem for city-folk.

In any case, I stand in support of modern plumbing. Solid.

Better read that again. I specifically referred to hiking on your side of the pond. Been everywhere from northern Ontario to the Yukon..

Sweet! But you said you keep a 10 guage in Normandy for the bears. What's up with that?

The jerky in Normandy's nature parks isn't the best idea in any case: the wild boar mass at least twice a person's weight, and that's just the immature ones.

I would love to see wild pigs that big. Can you hunt them?

[Vieux Normand]

O.k., I gotta ask. What points to you find yourself more conservative on?

In terms of economics, I'm strictly user-pay, rather than taxation on anything. That includes health-care, education, security (police) and a number of things many think we should all support with taxes. Use only what you willingly pay for, full stop.

In terms of immigration, my idea of a perfect level is zero.

My views on "race" and tribalism are not relevant to the conversation, but some find them archaic.

In terms of Statism, the State is something I ignore.

Not sure what else you want to know.

Is that what you were doing in the summer of 1789?

That "vieux", am I? Seriously, 1789 was just a case of "meet the new boss, same as the old boss". Revolutions tend go that way.

I preffer the voting thing. Ignoring it is dangerous.

Your optimism that voting will make a difference is charming.

Um, because there's no civil war right now?

Why not? If what you describe is accurate, the US is sliding into tyranny even as we speak. Isn't armed rebellion a natural right or some such?

Your inflamtory rhetoric sound pretty stupid from where I'm sitting.

Some DC "traitors" and a recently-reelected president would like a word with you about inflammatory rhetoric.

Ooh, good for you! Would you like a cookie?

For pointing out that being labelled an "enemy of the state" ain't the end of the world? Sure. Chocolate-chip plz.

The usual suspects look like they're going to try.

Of course they'll try. From such as them, this kind of thing is expected.

You really think they are smart people?

Where did I make any claim of the sort?

One post you claim that the government is untopable with all their bitching war toys.

The next they are impotent fuddy duddies who couldn't kick down a single door at 4am because it's past their bedtime.

You can;t have it both ways. Wh

Tu quoque: you claim State armies haven't as mighty a set of small arms as private citizens, and then you shriek to high heaven about what its legislators are trying to pass (something which, given the small-arms imbalance you describe, they could not possibly enforce). You can't have it both ways.

Lack of resources has never stopped congress from trying to do anything stupid and costly.

You're welcome.

Yup, voted out by bushmaster owners. Who don't want to be made criminals by the whim of an ignorant hypocritical few (who are paid out of our pockets BTW).

Why, then do you continue to pay them? You're better armed; how can they force payment?

Who gets to be the sacrificial lamb in your weird fantasy dude? Just roll the dice and figure chances favor someone else getting to be the legal precedent. Who gets a ride through the justice sytem for no action of their own at all? Who would you throw under the bus for your smug sense of security?

In any holy war, martyrdom is an honour.

No level of injustice is tollerable in a civilised society. None.

Then don't tolerate it. Rid your society of it or ignore it. Not sure what complaining about it does.

when I purchase a gun I do the paperwork, clear the check and pay the tax.

As do I. What's your point.

You do a lot of "black market business" Vieux?

For a 10-ga. and a three-ought?

*facepalm*

The paperwork for acquiring, owning and traveling with these is vanishingly small and--since service nationale (yes, I'm old enough to have been conscripted) dealt with any boyhood fantasies I might have had about military weapons--I have no interest in acquiring anything else. Whether anyone else does or not is their business.

What point are you trying to make?

Somebody was bellyaching about China's rise. I was simply pointing out that whatever rises will also fall, empires included.

People like you are the reason **** gets so bad that when people finally pull their heads out of the sand it's too late and they are already trapped.

Actually,it's far worse than that: people like me would be the ones in black shirts.

The ability to pursue that business is under attack as we speak.

Business goes where there's demand and money. No legislation can do much to halt it. But you already knew that...right?

I say I don't want our country to degrade to thrid world status (regarding living standards).

And your reaction was "The Muslims won't move her because they can't tollerate the weather".

Your point being?

Sweet! But you said you keep a 10 guage in Normandy for the bears.

Where did I write anything about bears in Normandy? It's weird enough that the place's flag has lions in it, when there haven't been any lions in Normandy for centuries at least. When I'm home, my firearms are there (usually for post-trip maintenance, but you'd already know that, right?). When I travel, they go the same way they go for all hunters: properly and legally, and only if and when I want them along.

I would love to see wild pigs that big. Can you hunt them?

Yes.

EDIT: This is getting a bit time-consuming. Imma check other threads for a while. You can take that as "VN realizes he's wrong about everything and runs away" if you like--it's all good. Nice talkin'.

[MarJoe]

The need for several rifles and caliber, different size game, amout of distrance for the shot. My AR10 (308 not 223) for fast second if needed. Also for feral hog, their numbers are out of control. With my AR ,I get 2 or 3 aimed rounds before they run off. The meat is then given to a hunters feed the hunrgy progam. The AR for self defense., if the bad is behind cover(something I cannot shoot thru) I can put enough on target so the felon will not shoot me. MY collection is an investment that has a stready growth better than any 401Ks or bonds. I made avery profit Yesterday at a small gun show. Does t5hat answer some of your questions about more than 5 firearms.I have very good and heavy gun safes. I am a Marine Nam Vet and know what bullets can do to a human. A question , if the Feds take our ,are we going to market value for or get ripped off by them? Joe

[Vieux Normand]

You do a lot of "black market business" Vieux?

None whatsoever. The black market has nothing to offer that I'm interested in.

As for "knowing who I'm (not, actually) dealing with", what we're talking about is business. Commerce. Bottom-line. Everything that those involved do is geared toward maximizing profits.

Work long enough in a city's nightclub scene, and you'll learn what sells what and who wants what. People will walk up to you and--using innocuous terminology ("candy", "tools", "good-times") to avoid legal problems, particularly if they're meeting you for the first time--let you know what's on offer. As well, if you're a bouncer, they might offer you extra money to "solve problems for some friends" or take part in "sporting events". If you're new at any given venue, others who've been there longer will point out the who and the what.

If you immediately run to the nearest plainclothes in the place with any of this, you're likely to be treated with a shrug and a "tell us something we don't know". Cops can keep an eye on things all they want, but smart businessmen are discreet: getting arrested is bad for the bottom line. Whatever initial contacts might be made in a place like a club, actual deals (and any actions related to them, such as "problem-solving") won't be done there. Again, getting caught is bad for the bottom line, and anything overt that happens in a club can cause it to get closed down--meaning the loss of a place where commerce could have been initiated.

Meanwhile, people do NOT get routinely "murdered for their money by those who'd rather keep their merchandise". Specialty markets, involving relatively-small clienteles, rely on repeat business. Not much repeat business can be obtained from a corpse, and any killing entails the risk of a crackdown...again, bad for business.

All this is not deep, dark, terrible knowledge available only to a few. Work in the club scene long enough, you'll see what is common knowledge. Of course, those who (unlike me) actually choose to get involved in **** had better be sure they can pay for what they buy, and had better make sure they do nothing that is seen as a threat to the business. Since those who sell the goods and services in question do not have recourse to the police, they will have their own methods of enforcement.

As for me, a polite "no thanks" has always been my answer to offers of whatever. Those who make the offers don't get all pissed off: who knows, they think, I might someday change my mind. Why kill the possibility of future business by a show of anger?

It's just business. Somebody else's business and, therefore, none of mine.

That's the extent of my "black-market dealings".

Gee wow, huh?

[Tranquil Suit]

As well, if you're a bouncer, they might offer you extra money to "solve problems for some friends" or take part in "sporting events".

Interesting. Please elaborate.

[Vieux Normand]

Interesting. Please elaborate.

Going after loan or other payment deadbeats (or any other problem-solving that involves force) and participating in illegal bouts.

I'd have to disagree on the "interesting" part. Well in any case, I was never interested.

[Mr. Machette]

Vieux, you have waffled back and forth so many times in this thread it's rediculous.

I didn't even bother to read the entirety of you last rambling wall of self contradiction.

It became evident @ two paragraphs in when you flipped possition on voting for the third time that you are not actually trying to say anything. You just like the smell of your own farts so much that you can't help but **** all over the place.

Have fun getting raped in prison by your "black market connections", blowhard.

[Vieux Normand]

Vieux, you have waffled back and forth so many times in this thread it's rediculous.

Proof? No? Thought so.

I didn't even bother to read the entirety of you last rambling wall of self contradiction.

If you didn't read it, how do you know it contains either rambling or contradictions? Right. File that along with your previous picturesque little e-tantrum.

It became evident @ two paragraphs in when you flipped possition on voting for the third time that you are not actually trying to say anything.

What part of "vote if you think it does any good" is self-contradictory? Right: one more outburst. Congratulations on being so consistent.

You just like the smell of your own farts so much that you can't help but **** all over the place.

I know it stinks in here 'cause I'm the ****. --Kid Rock.

Have fun getting raped in prison by your "black market connections", blowhard.

In prison for breaking what law? There's a law against knowing what everyone in your workplace knows about some of its patrons? Well, thanks for clearing that up for me.

Seriously, the only time I've ever been inside was as a CO. 'Fraid I never got raped. That sort of thing tends to happen to the fresh li'l young 'uns, and it's far less frequent than TV and movies would have you believe.

It's quite entertaining when you get all emotional. You should be a trooper and have more of these little episodes.