A Prayer

[Mr. Machette]

Exactly the problem.

What6 do you suggest? We replace POTUS with a robot? We arleady tried to elect Gore in 2000! Good god man, what more do you want?

Again, this claim is made by the heads of a number of states, not only the US.

Ok, and how many of those state empower the people to resort to violence if the sytem is buggered?

Any member of the State is a member of his or her community. They are not manufactured in vats.

You seem to think they would behave as if they were.

But not necessarily outgunned. Their arsenal is not limited to small arms.

Nor is ours. Some of the biggest stockpiles of nightmare stuff on the planet are but a stones throw from my front door. It ain't pretty and it ain't terribly well guraded either.

As it is here...with the proviso that they are theoretical and therefore subject to subversion. We are taught to be vigilant in respect to precisely this--by history as well as school.

Then once again, why are you asking questions you already know the answer to?

I am referring to practical real-life differences, not abstractions. Armed revolt will occur, given sufficient provocation, whether it is recognized in writing or not. That is our definition of a "natural right".

Official enumeration isn't a practical "real world" difference?

Ours IS written down so nobody can get confused when stupid conversations like this pop up.

The State arsenal is not, in modern countries, limited to small arms.

What's your point?

Ditto.

Prove this.

No. They were only preceded by the disarmament of those persons who opposed them. Those who agreed with them, one the other hand...

Are you even trying to make a point here? The class to be subjugated was first dissarmed. If you agree then why even try to argue?

The fact that something is in writing does not prevent its subversion.

It does however preserve and prove it's existence.

If that were true, you'd be doing like the Swiss and requiring households to be armed. Why, then, is this not done in the USA?

It has to do with the way laws work here. Some are broad federal laws that everybody must follow (child porn is illegal in all states for example...)

Some are states laws that only aply in that teritory. ( California's bizzare and convoluted firearms regulations for instance.)

Some are local ordinance. (You can open carry a Katana in Orgeon but not in the Portland city park down the street.)

There are notable small areas where firearms ownership is mandatory. They have as little crime as Switzerland. (Less actually) Go figure?

You are afraid, aren't you?

Dude, Drudge Report has "civil war" splashed across their main page right now. A senator just introduced a bill that would make more than half the population of the U.S. de-facto criminals and enemies of the state. I live in a politically diverse region very close to previously mentioned stockpiles of cold war nightmares.

Yeah bro, I'm sacred as hell for the direction things are going and I don't think your solution of "roll over and do what the man with the gun says" is a great idea given the numerous historical precedents.

What's that you said about vigilance?

I made little or no mention of "me countries values", other than simply stating that gun ownership is not a big deal over here. It's a tool. We use it. Hunting, recreation and so on.

Great, how would you feel if you were denied your tools? They are looking to ban lever actions Veux. LEVER ACTIONS. This is not about safety, this is about DOMINION. Period.

Likewise. Duh.

Why are we even having this discussion then?

I had previously written that the American take on guns appeared to be something akin to religious sacrament, as opposed to merely considering guns to be tools.

I see them as tools. The job they are supposed to perform is sacred to us. (Preservation of liberty) There are those in power who wish to deny us the ability to do that job. In facdt, the kind of social ideas they have are downright dystopian. Kafkaesque. Outlawing large sodas and such. Making it illegal to own items not produced by companies they are invested in and other conflicts of interest. Kleptocratic bullshit is what it is!

However, the horrible-nightmare-of-nightmares scenario you've described above, with congress, the prez, the Mexicans and the Chinese all out to get you, indicate a mindset primarily dominated by abject fear.

Or maybe I'm just being "vigilant" and paying attention to the emerging world power that openly discusses it's intent to annex the whole Pacific rim. (That would include my home BTW.)

Maybe I'm paying attention to the constant armed incursions by drug cartels into U.S. teritory. (I have family in Mexico BTW. This is about paramilitary forces running wild. It has nothing to do with my Grandpa Jaime. You think I have a problem with "Mexicans". lol Your talking to one, dude.)

Maybe I'm paying attention when Congress enacts laws which gut the constitutions most important protections (the ones establishing our justice system BTW, not the gun thing...).

Maybe I'm paying attention when our President does the same thing.

Maybe, just maybe, I don't like watching our country go down the same road as Weimar Germany. Maybe I'm aware of several branches of my family tree that were "pruned" in the 40's because of that little fiasco.

Maybe I'd rather die fighting than stand idly by and watch it happen again.

As the very effing least, I will excersise my rights to vote and contact my representatives as well as stand in protest against what I see as violations of the social compact between us and our elected REPRESENTATIVES.

The world's as scary as that, is it?

Welcome to the 21st century Vieux. I don't want to see my country turned into a third world cess pool. How bout you? You want to see that happen where you live?

Well, I'm happy with my 10-ga. and my three-ought.

Maybe I should be...scared?

What do you need a 10 guage for? 12 or even 20 would work just fine on any game you wish to hunt. Why the overkill? Nobody needs a 10 gauge to hunt with. What are you, some kind of gun nut?

[Styygens]

Your rights obviously end exactly where your government wants them to end.

Not true (though I suspect you won't believe it). That's why we have a written Constitution, including a Bill of Rights, and something far, far worse than guns:

-- Lawyers.

[MarJoe]

Everybody realize that DiFi has a CCW and armed security. She just want to get maybe a fourth of that bill. The next mass shooting(gun free zone) or Free FRire Zone .Then DiFi will be back for more gun grabbing. Oh **** I meant more safety restrictions. Alittle bit at a time until 2nd amendment means no private firearms.Don't you know ,we firearms owners cannot be trusted with such evil things. A good discussion of this propsal is at a milblog This Ain't Hell(TAH). Joe

[MarJoe]

I think I am on a roll or mad as Hell at ingorant MSM and talking airheads. I decided to check what the gun grabbers were saying and the dumbness is beyond belief. I had to change channels before I threw something thru the TV screen. I think to reduce the killings quit giving out the attacker,s name. Put some treeth back in our menthal health laws. The ACLU emptied the menthal hospitals. Look what we have on ourstreets now.The mention of arming makes the antigunners piss themselfs and start declaring it is going to be the OK corral,wild West shootouts. Jeff Cooper and Robert Heinlin both said a armed society is a polite society. Joe

[Devil]

You've really got to wonder where this country is going.

Extreme left wingers and extreme right wingers already want to destroy our government. Then the government systematically alienates huge portions of the population by pushing various legislation that infuriates people on both ends of the political spectrum. One day they're shitting on conservatives. The next day they're shitting on liberals. The U.S. government is becoming the Westboro Baptist Church of democracy. People may hate each other but they can all agree the W.S.A sucks.

Gradually (and sometimes rapidly) the satisfied portion of the populace gets smaller and smaller. Pretty soon you'll have the rednecks and the hippies shitting on the same police cars together. Nobody can agree what needs to be done to fix things but everyone can agree things are fucked up.

The only thing the government knows how to do is make more laws. More restrictions. Less rights. More burdens on the citizens. It will never stop on its own.

[Devil]

I will be investing heavily the next time prices bottom out.

Definitely. I've come to the same conclusion. If this blows over, prices will become reasonable again. The next time this talk starts I'll have a fucking armory that would make a team of Navy Seals jealous and I won't be sweating the **** I don't have.

I'm about to get serious about my gun collecting. And why wouldn't I? Look at these prices. Guns are a better investment than gold.

[submessenger]

The only thing the government knows how to do is make more laws. More restrictions. Less rights. More burdens on the citizens. It will never stop on its own.

This is a big part of the problem. We measure the effectiveness of Congress by how many new laws they pass each session.

(edit: IiF please cull our derail)

[Vieux Normand]

What6 do you suggest? We replace POTUS with a robot? We arleady tried to elect Gore in 2000! Good god man, what more do you want...and how many of those state empower the people to resort to violence if the sytem is buggered?

Powers in Europe learned, over the centuries, that it would be useless to deny a mass uprising. A written principal--either empowering or denying such--is merely words on paper and will promote or prevent nothing when provocation for an uprising is sufficient.

You seem to think they would behave as if they were.

The way you're describing DC's traitorous elites, you seem to think they were born of Ailen-facehugger eggs. They merely illustrate the difference between fine written political principals (such as constitutional amendments) and the politicians who subvert them. Be of good cheer: this malaise is not unique to the United States.

Nor is ours. Some of the biggest stockpiles of nightmare stuff on the planet are but a stones throw from my front door. It ain't pretty and it ain't terribly well guraded either.

Well, then, if things are going in such a terrible direction, what are the pickup-truck militias waiting for? Ain't it time to reverse the outrage of 1864? Can the populace overthrow their would-be tyrants? Prove it. Seize them nightmare weapons!

Official enumeration isn't a practical "real world" difference?

Real-world words on real-world paper. The fall of the Soviet Union and the Balkan conflict resulted in a glut of arms on Europe's black market. For those who wanted (and still want) assault weapons, they are available--and those who want them don't bother worrying about whether they'll get permission from governments in the form or constitutional amendments or whatever. Obedience to authority has never been a strong suit of Western Europe. More, authorities (some of whom have lucrative relationships with black-marketeers) tend to look the other way when certain folk (far-rightists like yours-truly, for instance) get their hands on juicy hardware, raising the alarm only when jihadists go looking for same.

Ours IS written down so nobody can get confused when stupid conversations like this pop up.

Nobody is confused--except those think having something in writing guarantees anything. If it's written, it can be subverted--just ask your DC "traitors"--and then it's just a matter of going to the black market to obtain whatever you could once get that politicians subverted.

Are you even trying to make a point here? The class to be subjugated was first dissarmed. If you agree then why even try to argue?

You appeared to refer to the disarming of an entire populace. I pointed out that the portion of the populace which supported an empowered movement of any type tends to get hired rather than disarmed.

It does however preserve and prove it's existence.

I can put into writing that the craters of the moon exist. In practical terms, so what?

It has to do with the way laws work here. Some are broad federal laws that everybody must follow (child porn is illegal in all states for example...)

Some are states laws that only aply in that teritory. ( California's bizzare and convoluted firearms regulations for instance.)

Some are local ordinance. (You can open carry a Katana in Orgeon but not in the Portland city park down the street.)

There are notable small areas where firearms ownership is mandatory. They have as little crime as Switzerland. (Less actually) Go figure?

Any large-enough country divides legislative power into different levels. Another poster pointed out that official armed power in the US is divided by level. So what? If the smallest local police force has trouble with a pickup-truck militia, they'll just call in more powerful official backup, and so on until the trouble is dealt with. One might call this "the Waco effect".

Dude, Drudge Report has "civil war" splashed across their main page right now.

'Cause the last one worked out really well for the rebels, didn't it?

A senator just introduced a bill that would make more than half the population of the U.S. de-facto criminals and enemies of the state.

...which is only a concern for those who give a **** about what the State thinks of them. Since the population of the US is so mightily-armed, and can grab poorly guarded nightmare stockpiles at will, stop whining and just crush the bastards. Or ignore them and do whatever you want regardless of what they think (which is my approach, but let's not digress).

Yeah bro, I'm sacred as hell for the direction things are going and I don't think your solution of "roll over and do what the man with the gun says" is a great idea given the numerous historical precedents.

When did I suggest any such "solution"?

What's that you said about vigilance?

That I knew the difference between vigilance and paranoia.

Great, how would you feel if you were denied your tools?

If I wish to keep my tools, I will do so--legally or otherwise. Whether I keep them does not depend on government permission. I'm not that obedient.

They are looking to ban lever actions Vieux. LEVER ACTIONS. This is not about safety, this is about DOMINION. Period.

...and how, in practical terms, do you imagine they can achieve this? They can't do it in Europe (hence the looking-the-other-way approach to the back market); how do you imagine legislators might succeed in the US?

I see them as tools. The job they are supposed to perform is sacred to us. (Preservation of liberty) There are those in power who wish to deny us the ability to do that job.

They can wish all they want. If the firepower is in the hands of the populace, you can deal with them (anything from voting them out on up) or ignore them...or just keep on complaining about it, I suppose.

In facdt, the kind of social ideas they have are downright dystopian. Kafkaesque. Outlawing large sodas and such. Making it illegal to own items not produced by companies they are invested in and other conflicts of interest. Kleptocratic bullshit is what it is!

Ditto.

Or maybe I'm just being "vigilant" and paying attention to the emerging world power that openly discusses it's intent to annex the whole Pacific rim. (That would include my home BTW.)

Han exceptionalism is nothing new. Peoples who claim "exceptionalism" for themselves tend to make grand claims and attempt land-grabs. From Joshua's attack on Canaan to the Roman Empire, from the Arab empire to the British one. As for China, the number of Bushmasters in pickup-truck militia hands won't matter much unless you believe in the whole "WOLVERINES!" fairy-tale. Defensive measures in such a case will be carried out a somewhat bigger scale. Exceptionalsm, wherever it happens, is just another way of cheering for the home team. Just about everyone, the world over, does it. A people who didn't consider itself "special" in some way...that would be exceptional.

It might be that, one day, the Chinese will have the capacity to demand that the US repay its astronomically-sized debt to China? Not to worry. Won't be for a while yet.

Maybe I'm paying attention to the constant armed incursions by drug cartels into U.S. teritory. (I have family in Mexico BTW. This is about paramilitary forces running wild. It has nothing to do with my Grandpa Jaime. You think I have a problem with "Mexicans". lol Your talking to one, dude.)

Just out of curiosity, where do these cartels get their weapons?

Oh, never mind. I'll just look it up.

Maybe I'm paying attention when Congress enacts laws which gut the constitutions most important protections (the ones establishing our justice system BTW, not the gun thing...).

Maybe I'm paying attention when our President does the same thing.

But...but what about those checks and balances you mentioned? You don't mean to imply that they're just...abstractions on paper?!!?!?

Maybe, just maybe, I don't like watching our country go down the same road as Weimar Germany.

Weimar Germany was the aftermath of a resounding military defeat. What is the parallel here? Viet Nam? The fact that the Taliban remain undefeated?

Maybe I'm aware of several branches of my family tree that were "pruned" in the 40's because of that little fiasco.

What occurred after Weimar was marked by a rearmament of sizable sections of the population. Up until their invasion of Russia, the Nazis had a number of lucrative business partnerships with the US (just ask IBM, among others). Again, what is the parallel?

Maybe I'd rather die fighting than stand idly by and watch it happen again.

Going down in battle is the best way to go--but that's just according to my faith. Don't know about yours.

As the very effing least, I will excersise my rights to vote and contact my representatives as well as stand in protest against what I see as violations of the social compact between us and our elected REPRESENTATIVES.

That's the spirit...and let's hope your vote and voice are more important to these luminaries than their other vested interests.

Welcome to the 21st century Vieux. I don't want to see my country turned into a third world cess pool. How bout you? You want to see that happen where you live?

Normandy's not that popular a destination for third-world types. Too cold. So...nope, not planning on learning Arabic any time soon. If planned on living in Reconquistan, I'd be working on my Espanol for sure.

What do you need a 10 guage for? 12 or even 20 would work just fine on any game you wish to hunt. Why the overkill? Nobody needs a 10 gauge to hunt with. What are you, some kind of gun nut?

After hearing that question from so many urbanites--from both sides of the Atlantic--do I really need to hear it one more time? Sheesh!

In any case, when wilderness hiking on your side of the pond, I found the 10-ga. scared off more bears than a 12. Rifles, of course, don't even register with them.

Cheers and good luck.

[Mr. Machette]

Vieux, your post is so big that trying to respond crashes the webpage. IDK why, but I won't be able to quote you so I'm going to try to keep this quick:

1)Powers in Europe treat peacful protestors like ****. See Spain, Itally, France. That's blood on the wall. Not a democratic socialist utopia of understanding and enlightenment.

2) I am not David Ickle. I'm not even Alex Jones. The elite are not lizards (I hope?) but they are dangerously out of touch and are now threatening our basic freedoms of life liberty and the pursuit of happiness via over criminalisation. This applies to far more mundane pursuits than firearms ownership BTW.

3) "Eternal vigilence is the price of liberty" - Wendell Philips, who you would call "paranoid". The rest of the quote from his speech is pretty cool too. Think you'd dig it:
http://www.bartleby.com/73/1073.html

4) There is no war on right now. Why would I want to go on a suicide mission that would only lend credibility to the states increasingly disturbing paranoia? This brings us to...

5) You want to know how easy it is to be branded and "enemy of the state" right now?
http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com...ou-on-dhs.html
No, they will NOT be arming any civilians. They most cerainly want every pleb dissarmed ASAP.
If you're not up to speed on the severity of the situation you should not be arguing this subject.

5)You wan't to be a fellon that's fine. But you're telling me basically, that instead of fighting to preserve our rights we should risk ten years in supermax and a $250,000 fine for possesing things we legally purchased. Like I said, mind your own effing business!

6) They can't round up every gun. But they can ruin the lives of millions trying. That's what we don't want to see happen, and that scenario is what has some people fighting mad already.

7)Arms are in the hands of the populace today. There are those who are actively trying to take them away tomorrow. Should that happen we would not have the power to defend amendments 4-9 of the BOR. These are the very ones actively being stomped on by congress and the executive branch since 9/11/2001, with increasing severity and abusiveness. The ONLY thing slowing dow the march of fascism is the fact that we can fight back, so they must take baby steps. But they are growing impatient, hence the big push (pusch?)...

8) "Han Exceptionalism" (of a sort) is what forced the revolution that birthed this nation to begin with. That revolution BTW was fought by only 3% of the people. Gun owners now account for at least 33% of the U.S. How good of an idea would it be to poke that hornets nest? Just saying...

9)China plans 50-100 years ahead. When they say they are looking to invade, they are talking about in my childrens lifetime. You're looking at China 2013. China is looking ahead to 2060. That threat is very, VERY real. They don't even try to hide it. They speak of it openly. EDJUCATE YOURSELF!

10) Cartels get their weapons from the very organs of state which would confiscate our own.
http://issues.oversight.house.gov/fastandfurious/
So, the government is actively arming militarized gangs which make daily incursions across our borders killing civilians on both sides, while simultaneously pushing to take away our ability to defend ourselves from those militarized gangs. (Which control organized crime networks throughout the country)

See what I mean by "treason"?

11)Amendment number two means that checks an ballances will be applied via force of arms if necesary. For some reason it appears that some in power would like to take it that far.

12) The Weimar comparisson had to do with the loss of liberty, privacy and basic human rights in an emerging police state. Watching our nation march in lockstep towards similar ends is well, "disturbing".

13)I like to go down in nightclubs but to each their own...

14)The will of the people is wholly irrelevant to the powers that be. It has been getting worse for several decades. So bad that even fence sitting moderates are starting to take notice and buy rifles and survival grub. It's kind of scary, really.

15)The third world comment was about our deteriorating standards of living and the loss of human rights, but go on Captain Racist!

16)I specifically asked that question because it as repetitious and fallacious as the questions you are asking me regarding the preservation and exercise of natural rights. You might as well ask me why I support municipal sewer systems.

Just out of curriosity, WTH kind of bears do you have in Normandy that a 12 gauge isn't enough BOOM for them? Remind me never to carry jerky in your nature parks! YEESH!

[MarJoe]

Remember divide and conquer?