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  1. Nefron is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/26/2012 9:11pm


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Machette View Post
    You mean like a wad of high explosives and a cone shaped piece of copper plating?

    Yeah, got it...
    I'm not sure I understand your point here. You mean you can improvise and make anti tank weapons on demand?
  2. Mr. Machette is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/26/2012 9:21pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nefron View Post
    I'm not sure I understand your point here. You mean you can improvise and make anti tank weapons on demand?
    Who me?

    Wouldn't dream of it...
  3. Nefron is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/26/2012 9:24pm


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Machette View Post
    Who me?

    Wouldn't dream of it...
    You show me yours, I'll show you mine.
  4. Mr. Machette is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/26/2012 9:34pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nefron View Post
    You show me yours, I'll show you mine.
    Not on a public forum.

    Suffice to say, there's more than one way to skin a cat.
  5. Vieux Normand is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/27/2012 11:33am

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    I have found it a common view, among some Americans, that privately-owned guns aren't allowed anywhere outside of the USA. Not sure why this is.

    As the Fragrant Flying Mammal states, rifles and shotguns are quite common in rural areas pretty much all over Europe. Yes, even in France.

    Guns may not get quite the high-profile treatment here that they do in the US. It might simply be that, in Europe, a gun is simply considered a tool rather than some kind of religious sacrament/ideological symbol.
    Last edited by Vieux Normand; 12/27/2012 11:37am at .
  6. Mr. Machette is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/27/2012 11:48am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Batman Smells View Post

    i have a 100 round restriction on stored ammo, and the 12g has a limiter in the magazine so it will only take 2 rounds (+1 up the spout)
    Dang. That's not a lot if you plan on getting in practice.

    The fee's aren't unbelievable, but would violate the constitution here. (I.E. self defense is a natural right, not a paid priviledge.)

    As common as the American missconception that hunting arms are scarce around the world so it the missconception about our rights comming from other countries.

    Most of the world treats their citizens as if the rights are "granted" by the existing government. Y'all are treated as "subjects" by a ruling class with a "tough ****, daddy knows best" attitude.

    Here the rights are recognized as being de-facto and belonging to any organism with enugh brains and teeth to defend them. We "grant" the rights unto ourselves through personal action.

    I.E., you don't charge someone yearly permit fees for a constitutional right. That would be like making people pay dues for their freedom of speech or freedom from discrimination.

    It's not hard to imagine a government that takes punitive action against someone for un-authorized speech or for being the wrong ethnicity.

    Those types of governments are the very reason the second amendment was enumerated. Also note a complete lack of reference to "hunting" in it's text. I see resistance to tyrany, and defense of nation, but no hunting...

    So FWIW, on this end of the pond we place value on being as well or better armed than those who wold do us harm. That intent comes before the duck hunting thing.
  7. Vieux Normand is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/27/2012 1:41pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Machette View Post
    Most of the world treats their citizens as if the rights are "granted" by the existing government. Y'all are treated as "subjects" by a ruling class with a "tough ****, daddy knows best" attitude...on this end of the pond we place value on being as well or better armed than those who wold do us harm.
    So...Americans are allowed to purchase, privately, better arms than those wielded by the State? Better tanks, drones, ships, combat aircraft and so on?

    No?

    But...what about "defense against tyranny"--or does daddy know best?

    A bit of an aside here: if you're a State, what might be the best way to ensure that you maintain power? That no others within your borders ever become sufficiently numerous, well-funded or organized to pose a threat? How to ensure a critical-mass of opponents of the State never, ever builds up, that no groups ever remains cohesive enough to be a problem?

    How about divide-and-conquer?

    A cultural tenet of rugged, "you're-not-the-boss-of-me" individualism might be the ticket for tyrants. This sacrament could be emphasized beginning in the earliest years at home and school. Ensure that even the term "collective" is frowned upon as ideologically tainted and unpatriotic.

    Those growing up to assimilate *ahem* this tenet would then be too cantankerous, fractious and perpetually-divided to form anything more than a pickup-truck militia, which could neither challenge the State nor defend itself against it--the State (daddy who knows best) is always better-armed than private citizens. Private citizens who are convinced that they're all "free" and **** might be less inclined to believe that State would dare to challenge them--so they never challenge the State. Everybody's happy.

    Not that this kind of mass-manipulation would ever occur to anyone...
    Last edited by Vieux Normand; 12/27/2012 1:45pm at .
  8. mike321 is online now

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    Posted On:
    12/27/2012 2:25pm


     Style: kenpo, Wrestling

    1
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    A Prayer

    Quote Originally Posted by Vieux Normand View Post
    So...Americans are allowed to purchase, privately, better arms than those wielded by the State? Better tanks, drones, ships, combat aircraft and so on?

    No?

    But...what about "defense against tyranny"--or does daddy know best?

    A bit of an aside here: if you're a State, what might be the best way to ensure that you maintain power? That no others within your borders ever become sufficiently numerous, well-funded or organized to pose a threat? How to ensure a critical-mass of opponents of the State never, ever builds up, that no groups ever remains cohesive enough to be a problem?

    How about divide-and-conquer?

    A cultural tenet of rugged, "you're-not-the-boss-of-me" individualism might be the ticket for tyrants. This sacrament could be emphasized beginning in the earliest years at home and school. Ensure that even the term "collective" is frowned upon as ideologically tainted and unpatriotic.

    Those growing up to assimilate *ahem* this tenet would then be too cantankerous, fractious and perpetually-divided to form anything more than a pickup-truck militia, which could neither challenge the State nor defend itself against it--the State (daddy who knows best) is always better-armed than private citizens. Private citizens who are convinced that they're all "free" and **** might be less inclined to believe that State would dare to challenge them--so they never challenge the State. Everybody's happy.

    Not that this kind of mass-manipulation would ever occur to anyone...
    The US has a number of power divisions. Right to bear arms is just one of them. The individual states do in fact have tanks and aircraft...but the president can federalize them..who's order would they follow? Our military is divided into different branches, who would they follow if president did not give up power? Civilian police forces are heavily armed also. A potential dictator also has to deal with the Secret Service which serves the President not a dictator. They also have arrest power if someone tried to usurp power from or threaten the elected President. They are part of the Treasury. Your view of right to bear arms is simplistic.
  9. submessenger is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/27/2012 2:55pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Out of the frying pan, into the fire... Drudge just headlined "CIVIL WAR: SENATE TO GO FOR HANDGUNS" and linked to this: http://www.feinstein.senate.gov/publ...ssault-weapons

    The main points are there, but for posterity:
    Quote Originally Posted by DiFei assault on weapons
    Following is a summary of the 2013 legislation:
    Bans the sale, transfer, importation, or manufacturing of:
    • 120 specifically-named firearms
    • Certain other semiautomatic rifles, handguns, shotguns that can accept a detachable magazine and have one military characteristic
    • Semiautomatic rifles and handguns with a fixed magazine that can accept more than 10 rounds


    Strengthens the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban and various state bans by:
    • Moving from a 2-characteristic test to a 1-characteristic test
    • Eliminating the easy-to-remove bayonet mounts and flash suppressors from the characteristics test
    • Banning firearms with “thumbhole stocks” and “bullet buttons” to address attempts to “work around” prior bans

    Bans large-capacity ammunition feeding devices capable of accepting more than 10 rounds.
    Protects legitimate hunters and the rights of existing gun owners by:
    • Grandfathering weapons legally possessed on the date of enactment
    • Exempting over 900 specifically-named weapons used for hunting or sporting purposes and
    • Exempting antique, manually-operated, and permanently disabled weapons


    Requires that grandfathered weapons be registered under the National Firearms Act, to include:
    • Background check of owner and any transferee;
    • Type and serial number of the firearm;
    • Positive identification, including photograph and fingerprint;
    • Certification from local law enforcement of identity and that possession would not violate State or local law; and
    • Dedicated funding for ATF to implement registration
  10. Nefron is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/27/2012 3:20pm


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Machette View Post

    Suffice to say, there's more than one way to skin a cat.
    Yes, and some ways are clearly more effective than others. You could carry around blow pipes and throwing knives for self defense. Do you really need guns?

    As far as I can see, most gun owners in the US insist on getting the most effective self defense weapon they can.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Machette View Post

    Most of the world treats their citizens as if the rights are "granted" by the existing government. Y'all are treated as "subjects" by a ruling class with a "tough ****, daddy knows best" attitude.

    Here the rights are recognized as being de-facto and belonging to any organism with enugh brains and teeth to defend them. We "grant" the rights unto ourselves through personal action.
    Well, you are safe as long as you firmly believe that. The government has no interest in you. As soon as you start hanging around with people they don't like they can kill you with a drone strike. Or put you in some hole and keep you there for a few years.

    Your rights obviously end exactly where your government wants them to end.

    Why don't you grant yourself the right to own and operate TOW missiles through personal action? Not enough teeth or brains?
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