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  1. ChuckWepner is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/19/2012 1:04pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    Get the data for the "guns in schools" especially public ones because I have never seen that data.
    Poor wording on my part. I didn't mean to suggest that I have seen additional data on teachers handling guns in schools, just that the limited data I have seen about gun owners in general using them successfully for self-defense vs. other, negative consequences does not make me optimistic about the possible results of arming teachers.

    And I'm not an anti-gun nut, either. I would like our school safety policies to be based on rational deliberation concerning evidence about what would make kids safe, in light of what else would be sacrificed for each additional degree of safety.

    The people who want to arm teachers in the classroom owe us evidence that it would make things safer; I have seen zero so far.
  2. Scrapper is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/19/2012 1:05pm

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    3
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sigh.

    *A 1993 nationwide survey of 4,977 households found that over the previous five years, at least 3.5% of households had members who had used a gun "for self-protection or for the protection of property at home, work, or elsewhere." Applied to the U.S. population, this amounts to 1,029,615 such incidents per year. This figure excludes all "military service, police work, or work as a security guard."[19]

    * A 1994 survey conducted by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found that Americans use guns to frighten away intruders who are breaking into their homes about 498,000 times per year.[20]

    * A 1982 survey of male felons in 11 state prisons dispersed across the U.S. found:[21]

    • 34% had been "scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim"
    • 40% had decided not to commit a crime because they "knew or believed that the victim was carrying a gun"
    • 69% personally knew other criminals who had been "scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim"[22]
    * A 1994 survey conducted by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) found that Americans use guns to frighten away intruders who are breaking into their homes about 498,000 times per year.[130]

    * According to the CDC, there were about 18,498 gun-related accidents that resulted in death or an emergency room visit during 2001[131] (the earliest year such data is available from the CDC[132]). This is roughly 27 times lower than the CDC's 1994 estimate for the number of times Americans use guns to frighten away intruders who are breaking into their homes.[133]

    *Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18]
    And lo, Kano looked down upon the field and saw the multitudes. Amongst them were the disciples of Uesheba who were greatly vexed at his sayings. And Kano spake: "Do not be concerned with the mote in thy neighbor's eye, when verily thou hast a massive stick in thine ass".

    --Scrolls of Bujutsu: Chapter 5 vs 10-14.
  3. Scrapper is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/19/2012 1:05pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I can print the whole bibliography, if you want...
    And lo, Kano looked down upon the field and saw the multitudes. Amongst them were the disciples of Uesheba who were greatly vexed at his sayings. And Kano spake: "Do not be concerned with the mote in thy neighbor's eye, when verily thou hast a massive stick in thine ass".

    --Scrolls of Bujutsu: Chapter 5 vs 10-14.
  4. submessenger is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/19/2012 1:16pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by patfromlogan View Post
    You wrote about killing a mob and when responded to, the responder was attacked for not getting your trolling (or something to that effect). Therefore you win if taken seriously, win if not, the logical response being countered either way.

    So what are the self-defense value in a 30 clip magazine? Taking out a lynch mob circa 1935 Alabama? Please tell me something good, beneficial, that automatics, held by civilians, have done.
    What is the self-defense value of a 1 round magazine? What amount of ammunition would you suggest as appropriate?

    Limiting the vast majority of firearms owners because of the misdeeds of a few is heavy-handed.

    Millions of Americans have managed to not kill anyone using their AR-15s:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/17/us...anted=all&_r=0

    Mr. Halbrook, who compiled manufacturing estimates for a lawsuit, said that by a conservative estimate, 3.3 million to 3.5 million AR-15s were made in the United States from 1986 through the first half of this year and were not exported.
  5. Devil is offline
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    His heart was visible, and the dismal sack that maketh excrement of what is eaten.

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    Posted On:
    12/19/2012 1:21pm

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    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by patfromlogan View Post
    You wrote about killing a mob and when responded to, the responder was attacked for not getting your trolling (or something to that effect). Therefore you win if taken seriously, win if not, the logical response being countered either way.

    So what are the self-defense value in a 30 clip magazine? Taking out a lynch mob circa 1935 Alabama? Please tell me something good, beneficial, that automatics, held by civilians, have done.
    I will consider it after you learn the difference between automatics and semiautomatics.
  6. submessenger is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/19/2012 1:27pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Scut Farkus View Post
    I will consider it after you learn the difference between automatics and semiautomatics.
    I don't bother trying to correct this mistake, gun control advocates misuse the term on purpose, I think.
  7. Scrapper is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/19/2012 1:34pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "Further, the chance that large numbers of guns in the schools not in the control of trained, experienced professionals will lead to accidental shootings, gun thefts by students, use of the guns by teachers in confrontations with students, or other problems has to be taken into account. And as Arthur L. Kellermann (M.D., M.P.H.), et al., found in their study, "Injuries and Deaths Due to Firearms in the Home," published in the Journal of Trauma 45 (1998): 263-267, in their sample set, among people who injured or killed someone with a gun that they kept in their home, 48% of the shootings were attempted or successful suicides, 30% were homicides, attempted homicides, or assaults with a deadly weapon, 18% were accidental shootings, and 4% were self-defense or justifiable homicides or attempted homicides."

    This study was based upon a survey of 4500 homes, and subjected to much-refuted statistical manipulation to achieve results Kellerman admitted were political. Furthermore, his extrapolated risks never correlated to actual data, and as such even the CDC will not use his data or methods.

    Kellermen's method also received criticism for including guns brought into the home by the criminal in question as a "gun in the home." IE, a murder breaks in with a gun, therefore you have a gun in the home.

    "The authors reported that among those 438 assaultive gunshot woundings, 49 involved a gun 'kept in the home where the shooting occurred,' 295 involved a gun brought to the scene from elsewhere, and another 94 involved a gun whose origins were not noted by the police."

    "there were significant differences between the study participants and the control. There was a 30% difference between home ownership vs renting between subjects and control, and a 15% difference in living alone or not. Only 48% of the control subjects were interviewed in person. Never mind that there were more users of illicit drugs, alcoholics, and persons with a history of violence in the households of the case subjects than in the households of the controls."

    As refuted:
    Kellermann admits to the political goal of his work, saying "People should be strongly discouraged from keeping guns in their homes." ("Gun ownership as a risk factor for homicide in the home," New England Journal of Medicine, Oct. 1993.) Anti-gun groups have seized upon his most recent attempt in this regard, a "study" from which the bogus "22 times more likely" risk-benefit ratio is derived. ("Injuries and Deaths Due to Firearms in the Home," Journal of Trauma, Injury, Infection and Critical Care, Aug. 1998.) The study suffers numerous flaws common to previous Kellermann efforts, including the fact that it is a very small-scale survey of sample jurisdictions that are not representative of the country or even of one another.

    Most significant, though, Kellermann severely understates defensive uses of guns, by counting only those in which criminals are killed or injured. Dr. Edgar A. Suter, writing in the Journal of the Medical Association of Georgia, explains the error in the context of an earlier Kellermann study, which compared family member deaths to killings of criminals:

    "The true measure of the protective benefits of guns are the lives saved, the injuries prevented, the medical costs saved, and the property protected—not the burglar or rapist body count. Since only 0.1% to 0.2% of defensive gun usage involves the death of the criminal, any study, such as this, that counts criminal deaths as the only measure of the protective benefits of guns will expectedly underestimate the benefits of firearms by a factor of 500 to 1,000." ("Guns in the Medical Literature—A Failure of Peer Review," March 1994, p. 134.)

    Similarly, criminologist Gary Kleck notes, "More commonly, guns are merely pointed at another person, or perhaps referred to or displayed, and this sufficient to accomplish the ends of the user." (Targeting Guns, Aldine de Gruyter, 1997, p. 162.) Kleck's 1995 landmark survey of defensive gun uses found guns used for protection as many as 2.5 million times annually, a number much smaller, obviously, than the number of criminals killed or wounded. ("Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun," Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology, Fall 1995.)

    Kellermann's "22 times more likely" study suffers yet another flaw: only 14.2% of criminal gun-related homicides and assaults he surveyed involved guns kept in the homes where the crimes occurred. With a similar sloppiness in his "43 times more likely" study, suicides (never shown to correlate to gun ownership) accounted for the overwhelming majority of gun-related family member deaths he pretended to compare to defensive gun uses.
    And lo, Kano looked down upon the field and saw the multitudes. Amongst them were the disciples of Uesheba who were greatly vexed at his sayings. And Kano spake: "Do not be concerned with the mote in thy neighbor's eye, when verily thou hast a massive stick in thine ass".

    --Scrolls of Bujutsu: Chapter 5 vs 10-14.
  8. Scrapper is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/19/2012 1:35pm

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    3
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I am the Cullion of gun control debates...
    And lo, Kano looked down upon the field and saw the multitudes. Amongst them were the disciples of Uesheba who were greatly vexed at his sayings. And Kano spake: "Do not be concerned with the mote in thy neighbor's eye, when verily thou hast a massive stick in thine ass".

    --Scrolls of Bujutsu: Chapter 5 vs 10-14.
  9. Devil is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/19/2012 1:36pm

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    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Also, a "30 clip magazine." lol. I missed that one the first time through. The **** is a 30 clip magazine? This **** just highlights the absurdity of these ignorami attempting to have an intelligent discussion about something they don't understand. It's like tribesmen from the amazon trying to have an intelligent discussion about airline safety.

    Reminds me of Carolyn "Barrel Shroud" McCarthy.
  10. Vieux Normand is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/19/2012 1:37pm

    Join us... or die
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Swollen Elf Goon View Post
    I am the Cullion of gun control debates...
    ^^^????

    Cullion is a one-man lemon party.

    You sure you want to make that claim?

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