Why Don’t You Have a Type 3 FFL?

[Devil]

Good evening, fellow ‘Muricans. This bit of information is for you. Foreign riff-raff may click the back button now. That means you, Battlefields and anyone from New York or California.

Since some of you aren’t redneck gun groupies like myself, I’ll assume you may be wondering what exactly a Type 3 FFL is. Allow me to explain. It is a Federal Firearms License for collectors of curios and relics (C&R) firearms. Please do not confuse the Type 3 FFL with the often misunderstood Class 3 status as regulated by the National Firearms Act. The C&R license will not allow you to purchase a Maxim machine gun to mount on the roof of your 1988 Ford Ranger. Sorry.

What can you do with it, then? It will allow you to buy or sell curios and relics through interstate commerce. In a nutshell, if a gun is over 50 years old OR if it is listed on the BATFE’s list of curios and relics you can buy it online and have it shipped directly to your home.

The purpose of the C&R License is to facilitate your personal collection only. It is not a license to deal firearms. You can sell weapons you purchase just like you can sell any other personal property you own. But if the BATFE checks your records and decides you’re selling guns to make money instead of simply furthering or liquidating your collection they’re going to be balls deep in your butthole quick, fast and in a hurry.







One of the first questions people usually ask at this point is “Does that mean the ATF can come in my house to check my **** any time they want?” No, fucker. That’s not what it means. You do have to keep a record of the C&R items you purchase. They can check your records and verify you still have everything you’re supposed to have. But they have to offer you the option of doing it at their location. Or you can have them come to your home if you choose. Either way, C&R inspections are few and far between.

I know what you’re thinking now. Well if I can’t use this license to buy a 10mm Glock, what good is it and why should I want one? I can already buy old guns at the gun store. What are the real benefits?

• First of all, you should know that applying for the C&R license is as easy as pie. You fill out form ATF7CR, which is three pages of very basic ****. Who are you? Where do you live? Are you a criminal? One copy goes to the ATF with your credit card info so you can pay for the license. The other goes to your local Police Chief or Sheriff sans credit card info. More on that in a moment.

Then you fill out a simple one page document (Form 5330.20) that confirms you’re a real ‘Murican and not a dirty interloper. This goes to the ATF as well.

There is a requirement for you to notify your local CLEO of your intention to acquire the license. Their approval is not required. The purpose of this is to give the local police an opportunity to let the ATF know if you’re a crazy ************.

So, the entire application consists of two forms that go to the ATF and a copy of one of those forms that goes to your CLEO. That’s it. I did include a letter with the document I sent to my CLEO to make sure he understood my purpose and to let him know no action was required on his part.

The entire application process took me about 30 minutes.

• Money – the licensing fee is a measly $30 for three years. If you buy one gun on the license in three years it will pay for itself by eliminating the transfer fee you would otherwise pay when you picked up the gun from your local dealer. It will make it more convenient for you to go ahead and pull the trigger and take advantage of great deals when you happen to find them on Gunbroker or wherever.

The C&R FFL will also make you eligible for discounts from Brownells and Midway. If you buy gun parts, accessories, reloading gear or anything of the sort this will save you a bunch of money over the years.

• Guns, duh… - What would you rather get in the mail – A water bill or an SKS?

• Zombies – Having the license will make you want to grow your collection of milsurps and milsurps are kewl as feck and will be quite handy during the zombie apocalypse. For around $1,600 you can buy a crate of 20 Mosin Nagants straight from Mother Russia.







• Knowledge – When you have the license, you’ll naturally want to see what you can buy with it. This will lead to an ability to identify pretty much any gun on sight. If you’re a gun goober you probably know most of the new guns, so learning the old ones will put you that much closer to having Terminator level gun recognition when you walk into a gun store.

• Chicks – They dig Mausers. ‘Nuff said.







So, just to get you thinking – here are some of the guns you can purchase using your C&R FFL: Mausers, M1 Garands, M1 Carbines, SKS, old 1911s, Walther P38, CZ52, Tokarev pistols, Mosin Nagants, Arisakas, Steyr 95, most pre-64 Winchesters. The list goes on and on. These are just some of the cool ones off the top of my head. What the hell are you waiting for? Get out there and exercise your gun rights to the fullest.


Link to the forms:

http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/at...16-notice.html

Link to the C&R list:

http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/curios-relics/

C&R FAQ:

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/curios-relics.html

[SteveM]

On the downside, having a Federal Firearms license makes you subject to Federal inspection, and who wants that?

The ATF regulation handbook section 478.23 a. through d. details the inspection and the rights of any ATF officer to inspect your premises WITHOUT ANY SUSPICION OF VIOLATION "to insure recordkeeping compliance."

This happens all the time to C&R license holders, essentially a federal law enforcement fishing expedition into your home.

http://www.atf.gov/publications/down...f-p-5300-4.pdf

So, no thanks.

[Devil]

On the downside, having a Federal Firearms license makes you subject to Federal inspection, and who wants that?

The ATF regulation handbook section 478.23 a. through d. details the inspection and the rights of any ATF officer to inspect your premises WITHOUT ANY SUSPICION OF VIOLATION "to insure recordkeeping compliance."

This happens all the time to C&R license holders, essentially a federal law enforcement fishing expedition into your home.

http://www.atf.gov/publications/down...f-p-5300-4.pdf

So, no thanks.

Unfounded hysteria and paranoia. You have a poor understanding of the regulations. Did you even read the sections you listed? Do you have any evidence of federal fishing expeditions into C&R license holders' homes on a regular basis, or is it just tinfoil hat day?

Here's section C of 478.23. Read it carefully. They can inspect your records once per year. They have to give you the option to do this at their office. They can also do an inspection in the course of a bona fide criminal investigation. If you're not willing to have your **** inspected every once in a while, don't do it. Additional privileges typically come with some associated hurdles:

"(c) Any ATF officer, without having reasonable cause to believe a violation of the Act has occurred or that evidence of the violation may be found and without demonstrating such cause before a Federal magistrate or obtaining from the magistrate a warrant authorizing entry, may enter during hours of operation the premises, including places of storage, of any licensed collector for the purpose of inspecting or examining the records, documents, firearms, and ammunition referred to in paragraph (a) of this section (1) for ensuring compliance with the recordkeeping requirements of this part not more than once during any 12-month period or (2) when such inspection or examination may be required for determining the disposition of one or more particular firearms in the course of a bona fide criminal investigation. At the election of the licensed collector, the annual inspection permitted by this paragraph shall be performed at the ATF office responsible for conducting such inspection in closest proximity to the collectors premises."

If you have any real evidence of the regulations being abused by the BATFE, please provide it. Otherwise, I'm going to assume you're operating based on a couple third or fourth hand horror stories.

[SteveM]

Unfounded hysteria and paranoia. You have a poor understanding of the regulations. Did you even read the sections you listed?

Look Scut, I'm no tinfoiler. You asked why I don't have a Type 3 FFL, this is why.

Here's what you just wrote above:

Here's section C of 478.23. Read it carefully. They can inspect your records once per year. They have to give you the option to do this at their office. They can also do an inspection in the course of a bona fide criminal investigation.

This is accurate except you omitted the fact that in addition to your records, they can inspect all your guns and ammo covered under the license. Granted, in the event that they are only doing 12-month "compliance inspection" and not just chasing serial numbers or other investigative matters, the licensee may opt to take their records, guns, and ammo down to the local ATF office to be inspected there (see § 478.23(c) ). Is this supposed to be an advantage?

If you're not willing to have your **** inspected every once in a while, don't do it.

I'm not willing. Nothing good comes from inspections like these.

Do you have any evidence of federal fishing expeditions into C&R license holders' homes on a regular basis, or is it just tinfoil hat day?

First off, why are you springloaded to the tinfoil hat accusation? Is it unreasonable to just not want to be subject to unwarranted inspection of my personal belongings? It's not like this is a dealer license, we are talking about just being a "collector".

Anyways, here's a few quick Google hits, as you can see these helpful random inspections do happen:

http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=7481&page=1

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbu...nce-Inspection

And this one corroborates what I said about inspectors requiring the collection be brought in to the ATF office (post #8):
http://forum.pafoa.org/rifles-42/133...r-license.html

Also FWIW wiki corroborates:
thttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Firearms_License#Curio_.26_Relic_Complianc e_Inspections

Additional priveleges typically come with some associated hurdles:

As I said, no thanks. On the infrequent occasions I purchase firearms I'll do it the old fashioned way: shop on the internet for the best price, then have them shipped to my local FFL where I will pay him $20 to transfer it to me and let him deal with federal inspectors.

If you have any real evidence of the regulations being abused by the BATFE, please provide it. Otherwise, I'm going to assume you're operating based on a couple third or fourth hand horror stories.

At this point you should man up and apologize for jumping way overboard with accusations in what should have been a mature discussion. You started with a good informative post, but this is Bullshido, can't your conclusions be questioned?

[Devil]

Look Scut, I'm no tinfoiler. You asked why I don't have a Type 3 FFL, this is why.

Here's what you just wrote above:

This is accurate except you omitted the fact that in addition to your records, they can inspect all your guns and ammo covered under the license. Granted, in the event that they are only doing 12-month "compliance inspection" and not just chasing serial numbers or other investigative matters, the licensee may opt to take their records, guns, and ammo down to the local ATF office to be inspected there (see § 478.23(c) ). Is this supposed to be an advantage?


I'm not willing. Nothing good comes from inspections like these.


First off, why are you springloaded to the tinfoil hat accusation? Is it unreasonable to just not want to be subject to unwarranted inspection of my personal belongings? It's not like this is a dealer license, we are talking about just being a "collector".

Anyways, here's a few quick Google hits, as you can see these helpful random inspections do happen:

http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=7481&page=1

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbu...nce-Inspection

And this one corroborates what I said about inspectors requiring the collection be brought in to the ATF office (post #8):
http://forum.pafoa.org/rifles-42/133...r-license.html

Also FWIW wiki corroborates:
thttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Firearms_License#Curio_.26_Relic_Complianc e_Inspections


As I said, no thanks. On the infrequent occasions I purchase firearms I'll do it the old fashioned way: shop on the internet for the best price, then have them shipped to my local FFL where I will pay him $20 to transfer it to me and let him deal with federal inspectors.


At this point you should man up and apologize for jumping way overboard with accusations in what should have been a mature discussion. You started with a good informative post, but this is Bullshido, can't your conclusions be questioned?

No, you halfway read my original post. You're posting threads from other forums that support exactly what I said and now you're arguing points that I've already confirmed were true. Nowhere did I say they weren't allowed to inspect your weapons along with your records. I said "They can check your records and verify you still have what you're supposed to have." How do you think I would assume they could do that without looking at the weapons? I thought that was obvious enough that it didn't have to be spelled out.

I'm not clear on what you're trying to prove with the links you provided. You eluded to "federal law enforcement fishing expeditions into your home" then posted links of inspections that went smoothly and where the agents were polite. In both cases, the people were notified of the inspection with a phone call in advance. Hard hitting stuff there.

In fact, it was your post that was exaggerated. I just pointed it out so people who are unfamiliar with the license will have accurate information.

I can completely understand if you don't want to be subject to any inspections at all. Many people don't. I'm not afraid of it one bit. The requirements are very basic and simple to comply with and for me it's worth having.

[SteveM]

OK, so you take issue with my use of the phrase "fishing expedition" as being exaggerated?

Here's what I mean by "Fishing Expedition": a law enforcement agency investigation initiated without any indication of wrongdoing or malfeasance. Is this not what is going on in these documented 12-month inspections?

Let's be honest, a federal law enforcement agent is not there to help you. He's inspecting, actively looking for errors and inconsistencies which innocent or not could land you in Club Fed (is that an exaggeration?).

I can see there is some savings involved when purchasing firearms, but how much is your time worth? How much time does it take to maintain a recordbook, keep abreast of the changing regulations, and how much time do you think one is likely to spend preparing for one of these inspections?

For me, a C&R license doesn't pass the risk-to-benefit analysis. I can see where others might think otherwise, especially if one were a truly large-scale antique firearms collector. However, I think it's just irresponsible to suggest that anyone outside of a very serious collector, much less the average Bullshido member, should get a C&R license with all the potential liability that entails.

However I do salute you for exercising those 'Murrican freedoms allowed only after subjecting yourself to an background investigation, paying a fee, and agreeing to be subject to unwarranted inspections. I also salute that chick in your pic with the Mauser K98k, can she be ordered from Russia by the case as well?

[Devil]

OK, so you take issue with my use of the phrase "fishing expedition" as being exaggerated?

Here's what I mean by "Fishing Expedition": a law enforcement agency investigation initiated without any indication of wrongdoing or malfeasance. Is this not what is going on in these documented 12-month inspections?

Let's be honest, a federal law enforcement agent is not there to help you. He's inspecting, actively looking for errors and inconsistencies which innocent or not could land you in Club Fed (is that an exaggeration?).

I can see there is some savings involved when purchasing firearms, but how much is your time worth? How much time does it take to maintain a recordbook, keep abreast of the changing regulations, and how much time do you think one is likely to spend preparing for one of these inspections?

For me, a C&R license doesn't pass the risk-to-benefit analysis. I can see where others might think otherwise, especially if one were a truly large-scale antique firearms collector. However, I think it's just irresponsible to suggest that anyone outside of a very serious collector, much less the average Bullshido member, should get a C&R license with all the potential liability that entails.

However I do salute you for exercising those 'Murrican freedoms allowed only after subjecting yourself to an background investigation, paying a fee, and agreeing to be subject to unwarranted inspections. I also salute that chick in your pic with the Mauser K98k, can she be ordered from Russia by the case as well?

To answer your question - yes, you were exaggerating and still are. Ermagherd, jackbewt thergs in mher heurse!!!

You're mischaracterizing the nature of the compliance inspections. It's not a fucking investigation. Don't be a drama queen. It's a compliance inspection, for an activity you've voluntarily engaged in knowing full well what is required of you to do so. Also, keep in mind that the fact that the BATFE may inspect your **** every year doesn't mean they do so.

I have a concealed carry permit too. I have to get my car inspected. My driver's license renewed. My professional certifications renewed. I have pilot buddies who get random visits from FAA inspectors from time to time. With every privilege where government is involved, there are hurdles to jump. That's just the way it is. A C&R is no different.

As far as the money and how much my time is worth - I can assure you I spend enough on guns for it to be of value. In fact, I buy enough **** from Brownells alone for the discounts to be more than enough to justify the C&R.

To say that it's irresponsible to suggest people should get a C&R is just retarded and is motivated by butthurt at being called out on your diarrhea mouth. Next time, read the post before deciding to set everyone straight. That will help you avoid useless commentary like "It's not like this is a dealer license, we are talking about just being a collector" after I have clearly pointed out that exact fact.

[Guybo]

As a c&r collector and owner of a number of automatic machine guns. In three years i have never had an inspection, i have over 60 rifiles, have over 6 bacground checks done yearly,on me for non c& r weapons, i shoot with many police officers and atf agents and frankly they really don't care about us law abiding people. They have penty on there plate with people with seriously bad intentions. So if your not going to do a straw purchace convert a semi to auto, rob a bank, and want to have a nice hobby and buy some wonderful rifles , pistols t a nice price its worth it. If atf bothers you don't, frankly most of them are ok

[goodlun]

Oh because I live in CA
Although the thought of becoming a FFL 3 manufacturer has been discussed when my brother retries from the LAPD.

[Devil]

You appear to be answering a question but I do not know what question you are answering.