Should we still teach Japanese in the dojo?

[dewey]

All of this has got to be at least a little condescending. However, you yourself said "we're all gaijin", and I had to know whether or not you appreciated the self-deprecating ramifications of that statement, especially for someone who resides in their own homeland and practices Koryu Budo. What with the seitei-ification of Iai in modern times, I don't know how "old school" this particular group of yours is, but members of a ryuha are generally a tight-knit group akin to what could be called an extended family. How miserable would it be to be an outsider in your own family? That's a red flag if there ever was one.

DARPAChief: you clearly know your stuff. Please let me clarify without the snark in my previous posts. I apologize that I offended you.

Yes, I'm an American studying a koryu budo here in America. I belong to the Seitokai lineage of Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu. I acknowledge Ikeda Takashi as my soke, and shortly Fukui Masato who shall be suceeding him. My certificates are signed by the soke. A kyudan hansi travels once a year from Japan to proxy exams on behalf of soke. At a certain point, I'll be expected to travel to Japan. We have absolutely no connection to ZNKR and do not "do" Seitei. We are, however, affiliated with the ZNIR, but Toho are not part of our ryu or its rank examinations.

The point of my previous posts in this thread was to comment on two issues: 1) if you study a traditional Japanese martial art, then don't be shocked if you regularly hear and are required to learn Japanese terminology; and 2) simply barking Japanese terms/phrases and performing apparently Japanese "mannerisms" without understanding their context/meaning (or even really trying to understand) is clearly absurd and insulting.

Americans fetishizing a certain aspect of a culture they are not part of is ridiculous and deserves to be mocked. However, learning about the culture and respecting it and trying to participate in...while knowing all along that you're non-Japanese and will always be so, is the point.

[DARPAChief]

The ones involved with Karate might identify that particular MA as something some Japanese adopted from foreign sources (a common-enough practice in Meiji- and post-Meiji jidai Japan). As well, they apparently decided to build a pedagogy suitable for larger groups, if the drills of Shotokan are any indication.

Brings to mind Funakoshi and Motobu, which is my soapbox in a nutshell, I suppose.

DARPAChief: you clearly know your stuff. Please let me clarify without the snark in my previous posts. I apologize that I offended you.

No offense taken. I was more curious than anything.

Americans fetishizing a certain aspect of a culture they are not part of is ridiculous and deserves to be mocked. However, learning about the culture and respecting it and trying to participate in...while knowing all along that you're non-Japanese and will always be so, is the point.

To be sure, it's made pretty clear to just about everybody that they are never going to be acknowledged as pure, unadulterated Yamato-damashii Japanese. However, this is a standard so out of touch with the facts of the matter that scholarly types have taken to writing about it (e.g. The Myth of Japaneseness http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.230...21101478623381).

I think we completely agree that anyone chasing after that mirage is in for some tragedy. Where it concerns the term itself however, "Japanese" is a wide-cast, messy, and by all means complicated thing to call yourself. Brings to mind other labels, like Chinese, German, and even dare I say it American!

[Vieux Normand]

Where it concerns the term itself however, "Japanese" is a wide-cast, messy, and by all means complicated thing to call yourself. Brings to mind other labels, like Chinese, German, and even dare I say it American!

Where my wife comes from (Japan's far north) more and more people are referring to themselves as Ainu, something those with that ancestry previously took great pains to hide. In terms of current nation-state of residence, they'll self-refer as "Japanese", particularly when outside of Japan. At home, though, not so much. I'm told that a growing number of Ryu-kyu (Okinawans) are going that route, but haven't been down there, so I can't confirm it.

I do sort-of the same thing: when outside of France, I let my passport identify me, but within that country, I'm un Normand (and don't often need to say it: I'm usually identified as one by sight). One is a nation-state of residence (and those are, historically, of recent provenance), the other is a tribe or ethnicity.

[goodlun]

I learned Judo in a Gym from a Coach, I also learned throws such as the

Spring Hip Throw
Minor Outside Leg Reap
Major Outside Leg Reap
Minor Inner Leg Reap
Major Inner Leg Reap
Two Arm Shoulder Throw

I have to admit working in the English language makes for clear concise instructions. It also does put me at a disadvantage when I travel even to other Dojos as I rarely have a clue what they are talking about. The coach did cover that Japanese names but since I never needed them they would go in one ear and out the other.

Also all of the BJJ I have learned has been in English and not Portuguese.

At anyways to get back to the point. I know a fair amount about the history of both Judo and BJJ, not knowing the language has far from impeded my ability to learn these things. All the crap about honor? Really?

[Gosai]

These things need to be upheld , I once went to a class and I entered the class where they were playing"number of the beast" by iron maiden this was just not right.

Wait, why isn't this right? (Sorry if it's been answered) I mean, I've seen at least one dojo ring a gong and light incense befvore training. What's wrong with music while training?

[judojeff]

Wait, why isn't this right? (Sorry if it's been answered) I mean, I've seen at least one dojo ring a gong and light incense befvore training. What's wrong with music while training?

Nothing as far as I know. Personaly I think it would be pretty sweet to be able to have some tunes going, maybe I will ask if I can bring in a little stereo during open mat.

The only issue that might come up is peoples differing musical tastes and the possibility of offending someone depending on the artist.

[DARPAChief]

Wait, why isn't this right? (Sorry if it's been answered) I mean, I've seen at least one dojo ring a gong and light incense befvore training. What's wrong with music while training?

I tend to find it greatly distracting, so I try to tune it out. I can understand how it might help others relax and focus, though. However, it could also conflict with the austerity germane to budo training in a dojo; on the flip side, if you train strictly combat sports in a gym, then you don't need to be mindful of that.

[doofaloofa]

The only issue that might come up is peoples differing musical tastes and the possibility of offending someone depending on the artist.

"Your music is ****"

"NO! Your music is ****"

"We must FIGHT!"

[Uchideshi]

I learned technique names in Japan so I kind of expect them to be spoken in Japanese. When I teach, I use an English equivalent and I also say the Japanese words and provide them in a written form. I tell my students, "if you go to Japan, you should know these names" but if they don't, why worry? The language is secondary to the art. No one demands you use English when teaching basketball in Japan...

[Rock Ape]

I'm late in on this one so apologies.

Japanese language taught as part of a Japanese system.

Provided the teacher can actually pronounce the terminology and more to the point really understands what those terms/words and phrases mean then great, teach them however, the problem lay in the inevitable fact that Nihongo is a complex language, and, like anything, be it a physical technique, it's only as good and accurate as the teacher's understanding and ability to pass that information on.

I always remember one gendai budo teacher proclaiming "kazar... kazar" ... "you're supposed to be cutting diagonal !!!"

"Kessa" giri is what he was supposed to be saying.

Teach martial arts related language if it's accurate, if not stick to your native language.