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  1. Vieux Normand is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/05/2012 8:17pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhi108 View Post
    Seriously, why the **** is this thread still going on?

    Are you all that fucking stupid?

    /looks over names of posters.

    Never mind.

    Carry on.
    We are indeed all that fucking stupid.

    You, to your great credit, aren't posting in this thread.

    If you were, we'd still all be posting as well, and it would thus never, ever end.
  2. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/09/2012 1:14am

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     Style: StrikeyGrappling & WW2-fu

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vieux Normand View Post
    We are indeed all that fucking stupid.

    You, to your great credit, aren't posting in this thread.

    If you were, we'd still all be posting as well, and it would thus never, ever end.
    just wait for him to post again. then you GOT HIM!!!!
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney
  3. SpamN'Cheese is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/09/2012 1:59pm


     Style: Karate, Boxing, BJJ noob

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Batman Smells View Post
    These days judo is an international sport and I don't think it can be claimed by Japan anymore than football can be claimed to be English

    So...Esperanto it is

    "took him down with granda ekstere rikoltos and finished the fight with ariergardon nuda estrangular FTW"


    Vi estas kun mi?
    My girlfriend is already trying to teach me Portuguese. You're killing me here!
  4. Vieux Normand is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/09/2012 2:23pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by SpamN'Cheese View Post
    My girlfriend is already trying to teach me Portuguese. You're killing me here!
    No. She is.
  5. DARPAChief is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/09/2012 7:36pm


     

    3
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by dewey View Post
    A common vocabulary unites all practicioners of a martial art or a combat sport. The use of the Japanese in traditional Japanese martial arts provides the Linga Franca for all. Using Japanese terminology is not bad in itself, it's just when the "Last Samurai" get involved and try to out Japanese the Japanese. We're all gaijin. Just gringos and honkys. As long as you're not comical or otherwise over-the-top about it, that's what counts.
    As a Japanese speaker who's lived and will live again in Japan, I would hesitate to identifying myself as a gaijin anytime, anywhere, because a) I'm not always in a foreign place, and b) the term itself has some baggage. In truth, it's more analogous to "outsider", and indeed before modern times (and even sometimes today) "Gaijin" would denote outsiders more or less exclusively. Perhaps you've heard of "Gaikokujin"; this is literally "foreigner" in our colloquial sense of the term, and you can expect friendly and mindful Japanese to address you in this way.

    All of this has got to be at least a little condescending. However, you yourself said "we're all gaijin", and I had to know whether or not you appreciated the self-deprecating ramifications of that statement, especially for someone who resides in their own homeland and practices Koryu Budo. What with the seitei-ification of Iai in modern times, I don't know how "old school" this particular group of yours is, but members of a ryuha are generally a tight-knit group akin to what could be called an extended family. How miserable would it be to be an outsider in your own family? That's a red flag if there ever was one.

    I think issues like this could be illustrative of the dilemma that comes with adopting something foreign, and how something as idiosyncratic as Japanese Budo can be compromised when taught on a large scale. As far as I can tell, this is a culture and pedagogy purpose-built for small groups, and the proof is in the pudding; you can look at three separate lines of Takenouchi Ryu that have preserved the core of their traditions for centuries in trying conditions, look to survive centuries more. I wonder how modern Budoka of the early 20th century would identify with their arts today.
  6. Vieux Normand is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/10/2012 3:32pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DARPAChief View Post
    I think issues like this could be illustrative of the dilemma that comes with adopting something foreign, and how something as idiosyncratic as Japanese Budo can be compromised when taught on a large scale. As far as I can tell, this is a culture and pedagogy purpose-built for small groups, and the proof is in the pudding; you can look at three separate lines of Takenouchi Ryu that have preserved the core of their traditions for centuries in trying conditions, look to survive centuries more. I wonder how modern Budoka of the early 20th century would identify with their arts today.
    The ones involved with Karate might identify that particular MA as something some Japanese adopted from foreign sources (a common-enough practice in Meiji- and post-Meiji jidai Japan). As well, they apparently decided to build a pedagogy suitable for larger groups, if the drills of Shotokan are any indication.
  7. dewey is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/10/2012 9:03pm


     Style: koryu

    1
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    Quote Originally Posted by DARPAChief View Post
    All of this has got to be at least a little condescending. However, you yourself said "we're all gaijin", and I had to know whether or not you appreciated the self-deprecating ramifications of that statement, especially for someone who resides in their own homeland and practices Koryu Budo. What with the seitei-ification of Iai in modern times, I don't know how "old school" this particular group of yours is, but members of a ryuha are generally a tight-knit group akin to what could be called an extended family. How miserable would it be to be an outsider in your own family? That's a red flag if there ever was one.
    DARPAChief: you clearly know your stuff. Please let me clarify without the snark in my previous posts. I apologize that I offended you.

    Yes, I'm an American studying a koryu budo here in America. I belong to the Seitokai lineage of Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu. I acknowledge Ikeda Takashi as my soke, and shortly Fukui Masato who shall be suceeding him. My certificates are signed by the soke. A kyudan hansi travels once a year from Japan to proxy exams on behalf of soke. At a certain point, I'll be expected to travel to Japan. We have absolutely no connection to ZNKR and do not "do" Seitei. We are, however, affiliated with the ZNIR, but Toho are not part of our ryu or its rank examinations.

    The point of my previous posts in this thread was to comment on two issues: 1) if you study a traditional Japanese martial art, then don't be shocked if you regularly hear and are required to learn Japanese terminology; and 2) simply barking Japanese terms/phrases and performing apparently Japanese "mannerisms" without understanding their context/meaning (or even really trying to understand) is clearly absurd and insulting.

    Americans fetishizing a certain aspect of a culture they are not part of is ridiculous and deserves to be mocked. However, learning about the culture and respecting it and trying to participate in...while knowing all along that you're non-Japanese and will always be so, is the point.
  8. DARPAChief is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/10/2012 10:49pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vieux Normand View Post
    The ones involved with Karate might identify that particular MA as something some Japanese adopted from foreign sources (a common-enough practice in Meiji- and post-Meiji jidai Japan). As well, they apparently decided to build a pedagogy suitable for larger groups, if the drills of Shotokan are any indication.
    Brings to mind Funakoshi and Motobu, which is my soapbox in a nutshell, I suppose.

    Quote Originally Posted by dewey View Post
    DARPAChief: you clearly know your stuff. Please let me clarify without the snark in my previous posts. I apologize that I offended you.
    No offense taken. I was more curious than anything.

    Americans fetishizing a certain aspect of a culture they are not part of is ridiculous and deserves to be mocked. However, learning about the culture and respecting it and trying to participate in...while knowing all along that you're non-Japanese and will always be so, is the point.
    To be sure, it's made pretty clear to just about everybody that they are never going to be acknowledged as pure, unadulterated Yamato-damashii Japanese. However, this is a standard so out of touch with the facts of the matter that scholarly types have taken to writing about it (e.g. The Myth of Japaneseness http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.230...21101478623381).

    I think we completely agree that anyone chasing after that mirage is in for some tragedy. Where it concerns the term itself however, "Japanese" is a wide-cast, messy, and by all means complicated thing to call yourself. Brings to mind other labels, like Chinese, German, and even dare I say it American!
    Last edited by DARPAChief; 12/10/2012 10:55pm at .
  9. Vieux Normand is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/11/2012 2:13pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by DARPAChief View Post
    Where it concerns the term itself however, "Japanese" is a wide-cast, messy, and by all means complicated thing to call yourself. Brings to mind other labels, like Chinese, German, and even dare I say it American!
    Where my wife comes from (Japan's far north) more and more people are referring to themselves as Ainu, something those with that ancestry previously took great pains to hide. In terms of current nation-state of residence, they'll self-refer as "Japanese", particularly when outside of Japan. At home, though, not so much. I'm told that a growing number of Ryu-kyu (Okinawans) are going that route, but haven't been down there, so I can't confirm it.

    I do sort-of the same thing: when outside of France, I let my passport identify me, but within that country, I'm un Normand (and don't often need to say it: I'm usually identified as one by sight). One is a nation-state of residence (and those are, historically, of recent provenance), the other is a tribe or ethnicity.
  10. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    12/11/2012 6:38pm

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     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I learned Judo in a Gym from a Coach, I also learned throws such as the

    Spring Hip Throw
    Minor Outside Leg Reap
    Major Outside Leg Reap
    Minor Inner Leg Reap
    Major Inner Leg Reap
    Two Arm Shoulder Throw

    I have to admit working in the English language makes for clear concise instructions. It also does put me at a disadvantage when I travel even to other Dojos as I rarely have a clue what they are talking about. The coach did cover that Japanese names but since I never needed them they would go in one ear and out the other.

    Also all of the BJJ I have learned has been in English and not Portuguese.

    At anyways to get back to the point. I know a fair amount about the history of both Judo and BJJ, not knowing the language has far from impeded my ability to learn these things. All the crap about honor? Really?
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