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  1. jwinch2 is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/21/2014 11:34am


     Style: PTK, MT, & Grappling

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Ground fighting in FMA

    Hello all,

    On the cross-training thread (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=123164) many of us noted that in addition to FMA, we were actively training some sort of grappling system, or had the desire to do so in the future. With that in mind, I am curious to know if any of you have seen or found ground work in FMA that works when pressure tested against other, more established, grappling systems (BJJ, Judo, CSW, Hayastan, etc.).

    There was a good thread some time ago on FMA Forum where the topic came up, and I made my thoughts on the matter known, which is that from what I have seen so far, there was nothing that satisfied that standard. http://www.fmaforum.org/index.php?sh...0%20hands&st=0

    The one system that was brought up was Harimaw Buno, from the Garimot Arnis system, and from what I have seen via video, it appears to have some promise, but I am unaware of anything which shows it in some sort of competitive format with other grappling styles.

    Of course, the easy counter to this observation is that the established grappling systems which are known to have been pressure tested in a live setting that I noted above are all susceptible to the knife, as they are not used to defending against it (not that this is easy to do when on the ground). To be fair, I agree with this observation. The other counter is that FMA practitioners don't want to go to the ground at all (many BJJ guys would say the same thing about a SD situation), which I certainly agree with as well.

    However, people on this forum are aware enough to know that this is not always an option. One of my Lacoste-Inosanto instructors used to make the argument that today's FMA player had to know some ground fighting/grappling basics, because there are more people than ever before walking around with those skills, due to the popularity of BJJ/MMA, etc. At he very least, he thought that you needed to be good enough that you could establish some sort of position and free your arm to reach and deploy your EDC knife, in a situation which warranted that level of response.

    As I noted in the cross-training thread, I really don't think that high level grapplers are walking around looking to get in fights at the bar, or are out mugging people on the street. However, "likes to fight guy" who has done a small wrestling in high school, dabbles occasionally in BJJ, etc. might be doing those things. In fact, I have seen exactly those sorts of people going out looking for trouble.

    Anyway, I thought that this might make for interesting discussion, and I look forward to your responses.

    Happy training!
    Last edited by jwinch2; 6/21/2014 11:38am at .
  2. Chili Pepper is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/21/2014 12:19pm


     Style: Siling Labuyo Arnis

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    We have our dumog/grappling curriculum, but it's limited, and mostly about controlling the clinch. For ground work, we'd much prefer to crib from the BJJ guys - let the specialists figure out everything, and then steal the most relevant material for yourself.

    The big difference is, of course, the addition of weapons, whether they're already drawn, you or your opponent is working to draw a weapon (or stuffing your own attempts to draw), or you're aware of the possibility.
  3. blindside is online now

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    Posted On:
    6/21/2014 1:35pm


     Style: Pekiti-Tirsia Kali

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    As I said on the other thread, my exposure to PTK dumog is very limited, so I fall back on the little BJJ & judo that I have as the core of my grappling skills. One of my fellow PTK instructors who (I believe) is a brown in BJJ these days speaks very highly of GT Gaje's grappling skills. However, I think it is safe to say that this is probably the least focused on skill set in PTK, and I am not sure how many of his students train in it regularly.

    Our focus on ground grappling really started this year (we have mats now!) when I opened up the sparring format to my students to include groundwork. And a couple of matches like this happened:



    The clinch to takedown happens and I wind up on top and like a good BJJ white belt I go for mount. And when I try to access my knife because it is stuck in my pocket I destabilize my base and he rolls me into my half-guard. He outweighs me by quite a bit and we are equally bad grapplers so I go to start posting off his hip to start shrimping and I run into his knife and draw it (mount allows me on the bottom access to both of his hips and the most common carry locations for knives). Normally in mount you establish your base and get your posture up so you can drop blows, that doesn't work when the other guy has the knife, you have to get down and get control of the weapon arm. In focusing on getting control of the weapon, Kai destabilizes his base enough that I can roll him.

    That match just highlighted to me some of the differences between the assumptions that I had been using in my really basic grappling and what happens when something changes (in this case knife) that assumption. So we spent about a month focusing on this range (knife grappling) and while this is in no way enough time it definitely highlighted some best practices. Now we tend to avoid mount and go for side control, it gives the other guy less access to your weapons and you get good control over his. This is us a couple months later and parts of that training show up (though I get reversed from side control when I start trying to access my knife, I need to work on that.)


    Definitely lots to work on, we will be revisiting the topic for another month this summer.
    Last edited by blindside; 6/21/2014 1:44pm at .
  4. jwinch2 is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/21/2014 1:37pm


     Style: PTK, MT, & Grappling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Very interesting. Thanks for that!
  5. tim_stl is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/21/2014 3:51pm


     Style: fma

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jwinch2 View Post
    The one system that was brought up was Harimaw Buno, from the Garimot Arnis system, and from what I have seen via video, it appears to have some promise, but I am unaware of anything which shows it in some sort of competitive format with other grappling styles.
    I don't think I have any video, but I have (and do) roll with guys who do BJJ, Judo, Catch, and Freestyle. I've yet to find Garimot Buno lacking; I've been outclassed by semi-pro MMA guys before, but it's always been a matter of my inability to stack up to the physicality and honed skill of a semi-pro athlete (being a lazy software engineer), rather than the art not having a practical answer. We have an annual gathering in Florida every July, and in attendance there are some who rank in Judo or BJJ, in addition to those who've competed in freestyle wrestling for years; I've yet to see one of them dominate someone with equivalent skill in Garimot Buno.

    Additionally, our annual gathering is open to anyone who wants to attend (July 11-13 this year). Anyone interested in Filipino grappling or ground fighting can attend and see what it's all about. Each day is about half instruction, half sparring matches. I think buno is on Friday this year. The sparring matches are encouraged, but not mandatory.


    tim
  6. jwinch2 is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/21/2014 4:11pm


     Style: PTK, MT, & Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by tim_stl View Post
    I don't think I have any video, but I have (and do) roll with guys who do BJJ, Judo, Catch, and Freestyle. I've yet to find Garimot Buno lacking; I've been outclassed by semi-pro MMA guys before, but it's always been a matter of my inability to stack up to the physicality and honed skill of a semi-pro athlete (being a lazy software engineer), rather than the art not having a practical answer. We have an annual gathering in Florida every July, and in attendance there are some who rank in Judo or BJJ, in addition to those who've competed in freestyle wrestling for years; I've yet to see one of them dominate someone with equivalent skill in Garimot Buno.

    Additionally, our annual gathering is open to anyone who wants to attend (July 11-13 this year). Anyone interested in Filipino grappling or ground fighting can attend and see what it's all about. Each day is about half instruction, half sparring matches. I think buno is on Friday this year. The sparring matches are encouraged, but not mandatory.


    tim
    Interesting info Tim. Thanks for that! I hope that I get the chance to try it out soon.

    For what it's worth, here is the video that I came across. Perhaps you can shed some light on how representative this is of the system. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBG9pwXrPkM

    Also, see my reply also on FMAforum to your latest.

    Cheers!
    Last edited by jwinch2; 6/21/2014 4:25pm at .
  7. jspeedy is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/21/2014 5:31pm


     Style: FMA

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Most if not all FMA that I've seen have some form of standup "grappling" which are basic locking and controlling technqiues and even sweeps but actual ground fighting is less common.I got a peak at Harrimaw Buno when I trained with the Garimot guys and they do have emphasis on positions and points of control but I haven't seen two of their guys go at it and roll, not sure if they put any videos out that show some actual rolling. But their system seems more developed than most or all other FMA ground fighting systems i've witnessed.

    Other FMA groundwork I've seen tend to focus more on individual moves and less on development of a ground game. In addition, like most FMA videos we see, the groundwork focuses on flow and less on resistance training. Not to mention many guys trickle to FMA after training a variety of other previous martial arts skills including grappling arts, so its hard to tell if their grappling is good due to the Filipino dumog they have or if its their previous experience that they are using. I'd like to see some video of an FMA grappler with no BJJ, Judo, western wrestling experience roll with another grappler (FMA or non).

    Also, the general trend in FMA groundwork is that its more dirty. Leg locks and neck breaks are taught to relatively inexperienced grapplers right away, but that just may be due to the nature of FMA and ending the fight ASAP. Like any system that focuses on more lethal or dangerous techniques there is a caveat that such techniques cannot be trained in an alive manner for fear of injury to partners. As a result, the moves might not be tested outside of a very compliant manner.
    Last edited by jspeedy; 6/21/2014 5:36pm at .
  8. tim_stl is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/21/2014 6:26pm


     Style: fma

    -1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jwinch2 View Post
    For what it's worth, here is the video that I came across. Perhaps you can shed some light on how representative this is of the system. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBG9pwXrPkM
    It's a pretty good representation of the style. Mike was showing off some (which he likes to do. we call him tandang - the rooster), but it's good for a look at the mindset of the art. Thanks for pointing that video out; I knew he had uploaded it, but I hadn't watched it before.

    Also, thanks for starting this topic. Gives me a chance to talk about an art I love. Not many students of FMA are interested in wrestling, and not many people who are into submission wrestling are interested in FMA.

    Quote Originally Posted by jspeedy View Post
    Garimot guys and they do have emphasis on positions and points of control but I haven't seen two of their guys go at it and roll, not sure if they put any videos out that show some actual rolling.
    I'm not aware of any video of a match on the web. If I take any good video in the next month and get permission from the participants, I'll post it and let you know. The stuff I have now looks like any other amateur submission wrestling.

    Quote Originally Posted by jspeedy View Post
    I'd like to see some video of an FMA grappler with no BJJ, Judo, western wrestling experience roll with another grappler (FMA or non).
    I took about a year of a JKD grappling blend, a couple BJJ classes, and I've been training buno for 13 years. If that's close enough, I'll try to get a decent video of myself, or if you can make it down to Ft. Lauderdale the evening of July 11, you can see me in person. Or better yet, you can see Gat Puno Baet, who has only buno.


    tim
  9. jwinch2 is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/21/2014 7:12pm


     Style: PTK, MT, & Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by tim_stl View Post
    It's a pretty good representation of the style. Mike was showing off some (which he likes to do. we call him tandang - the rooster), but it's good for a look at the mindset of the art. Thanks for pointing that video out; I knew he had uploaded it, but I hadn't watched it before.

    Also, thanks for starting this topic. Gives me a chance to talk about an art I love. Not many students of FMA are interested in wrestling, and not many people who are into submission wrestling are interested in FMA.
    You are welcome, on both accounts. I enjoy these discussions, and enjoy training a variety of things. Unless something drastic would happen, I can't imagine PTK not being my primary focus in the future, but I do enjoy training other things to round out my skills. Besides, sucking at multiple arts is much more fun than sucking at only one.


    Quote Originally Posted by tim_stl View Post
    I'm not aware of any video of a match on the web. If I take any good video in the next month and get permission from the participants, I'll post it and let you know. The stuff I have now looks like any other amateur submission wrestling.



    I took about a year of a JKD grappling blend, a couple BJJ classes, and I've been training buno for 13 years. If that's close enough, I'll try to get a decent video of myself, or if you can make it down to Ft. Lauderdale the evening of July 11, you can see me in person. Or better yet, you can see Gat Puno Baet, who has only buno.


    tim
    I would certainly be interesting in seeing any video you might have.
  10. jwinch2 is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/21/2014 7:28pm


     Style: PTK, MT, & Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jspeedy View Post
    Most if not all FMA that I've seen have some form of standup "grappling" which are basic locking and controlling technqiues and even sweeps but actual ground fighting is less common...

    Other FMA groundwork I've seen tend to focus more on individual moves and less on development of a ground game. In addition, like most FMA videos we see, the groundwork focuses on flow and less on resistance training...

    Also, the general trend in FMA groundwork is that its more dirty. Leg locks and neck breaks are taught to relatively inexperienced grapplers right away, but that just may be due to the nature of FMA and ending the fight ASAP. Like any system that focuses on more lethal or dangerous techniques there is a caveat that such techniques cannot be trained in an alive manner for fear of injury to partners. As a result, the moves might not be tested outside of a very compliant manner.
    Your exposure to FMA grappling is similar to mine it seems. I have seen several arts that are quite open about borrowing their stand up grappling from another system, but I haven't come across much in terms of actual ground work. The little bit that I have seen comes across as similar to silat to me. For example, this video of PTK dumog.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJ6HoQGaU9U
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