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  1. W. Rabbit is offline
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    There's not enough words to describe my existence.

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    Posted On:
    11/23/2012 2:17pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by mike321 View Post
    I think there was a much more casual attitude about saying racist stuff back then and it was perfectly respectable to have racial theories (and think some races were superior). So...I think he was just saying the skill was not enough to overcome a bigger wrestler or boxer like you find in the US.
    He was just being ignorant. Perfectly respectably ignorant.

    I'd like to point out Masahiko Kimura was (5'7") "average" Japanese height, so Teddy was in essence claiming an American with equivalent training could kill him.

    Bullshit, even if it is from a beloved president, that's still what it is.

    Teddy was "just" talking out of his ignorant ass about things he poorly understood...like most newbs.
    Last edited by W. Rabbit; 11/23/2012 2:23pm at .
  2. ljh2000 is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/26/2012 7:32am


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by wikidbounce View Post
    A remake is in the works set to be more faithful to the source material. I don't know if the film needs a remake, but I havn't read the Novel so not sure how different it could be.
    I've read the novel and seen the film. The film has virtually nothing to do with the novel at all, so a remake that would be faithful to the source material is long overdue. I'd love to see it.

    Verhoeven's film is more loosely inspired by the book, if anything, with only one scene having any relation to the novel at all. It's the scene in which the teacher lectures on citizenship to his students. Verhoeven's film is meant to parody fascism, something he admits himself on the DVD commentary, but that wasn't Heinlein's objective with the book.

    A film adaptation that more accurately explores the ideas of citizenship and its responsibilities would be fantastic, and more of use than the one-note joke that Verhoeven plays out on his campy, silly film. Don't get me wrong... there are things that I do enjoy about the film, even though it is pretty goofy. It's more of a guilty pleasure for me. But the novel and the film are two entirely different things.
  3. ljh2000 is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/26/2012 7:33am


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Oh, also... sorry Phrost. This was originally a thread on Roosevelt and jiu-jitsu, and I seem to have digressed somewhat. I still think the Roosevelt piece is a great example of how technique matters most, even if Teddy let the misinformed views of race prevalent in his time inform his perspective somewhat.
  4. Gosai is online now

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    Posted On:
    12/04/2012 11:17pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    Thanks professor.
    Teddy was not talking about averages and statistics and no, Teddy did not say "average Japanese", especially since the statistics you referenced were not even available in his time (unless he had a time machine and internet access).
    Haven't you read 'Tales from the Bully Pulpit'? He DID have a time machine. And was assisted by the ghost of Thomas Edison when he saved Mars from the Axis.
  5. Dork Angel is online now

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    Posted On:
    8/19/2013 2:15pm


     Style: Jujitsu Aikido Bodycombat

    -1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    Thanks professor.

    You didn't get it I guess, so you made a straw man, complete with a irrelevant Wiki reference to try somehow convince me Teddy, one of the most overtly racist US presidents in history, wasn't being overtly racist in his comments about the Japanese.

    Teddy was not talking about averages and statistics and no, Teddy did not say "average Japanese", especially since the statistics you referenced were not even available in his time (unless he had a time machine and internet access).
    By our standards it could sound racist but I don't know if it's racist to state a fact (i.e. on average Japanese are smaller than Americans - and by definition will have less muscle mass and strength).

    Before we had statistics we had observations. In this case the statistics available now proved the observation was correct then. He did not say average american either but specifically a big wrestler/boxer with the same training/skill.

    If we play with the figures and say the average american is 5-10 then a big wrestler or boxer comes in at maybe 6-0 or 6-2, maybe more? If the average Japanese starts at 5-7 then that's a lot of size and strength to make up if the guy is as skilled as you are.

    Just because he was racist doesn't automatically mean everything he said was racist. (If you want real racism see what was said about the Japanese during WW2). It could easily be read that if anything he complemented their fighting spirit but felt their disadvantage was their size.

    In a way it's the same reason UFC ended up with weight categories. Once everyone became roughly equally skilled/trained a fighters' size and weight mattered a lot more.
  6. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    8/19/2013 8:28pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Respond to old and moot post

    Quote Originally Posted by ljh2000 View Post
    This reminds me of Starship Troopers, the original novel. The sergeant invites the recruits to take him down. A corn-fed all American boy charges him and fails. A little Japanese man comes next and gives the sergeant a real run for his money, even though he also fails in the end. That's when the protagonist comments that the big ox of a man who came first would never take out the sergeant, whereas the fellow who demonstrated strategy and technique would one day succeed. The sergeant himself ends up bowing to his adversary for a job well done.

    This is pretty much the same thing for real. Really cool find, Phrost.
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    Last edited by BKR; 8/19/2013 8:31pm at . Reason: Old post
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  7. wetware is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/20/2013 4:57am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by wikidbounce View Post
    A remake is in the works set to be more faithful to the source material. I don't know if the film needs a remake, but I havn't read the Novel so not sure how different it could be.
    Stop. Get yourself to the library. If, for some reason, libraries in Australia are substandard and/or poisonous (everything else is) I'm sure it can be found on the internet somewhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by ljh2000 View Post
    I've read the novel and seen the film. The film has virtually nothing to do with the novel at all, so a remake that would be faithful to the source material is long overdue. I'd love to see it.

    Verhoeven's film is more loosely inspired by the book, if anything, with only one scene having any relation to the novel at all. It's the scene in which the teacher lectures on citizenship to his students. Verhoeven's film is meant to parody fascism, something he admits himself on the DVD commentary, but that wasn't Heinlein's objective with the book.
    The Starship Troopers movie started life as an unrelated script which was then strapped to the licensed title and made to fit. A little. This happens a lot in Hollywood, so if you go watch a movie "based" on a book you love and it's nothing like you thought it would be then there's a good chance that this is what's happened. See also: I, Robot.
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