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  1. han090 is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/07/2013 8:16am


     Style: Judo

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ming Loyalist View Post
    despite waiting for babo78's longer response, i have yet to see a single person make a logical argument for why the rising sun flag should be held to a different standard than the US or UK flag.

    i presented my position, and no one has seen fit to show it to be logically incorrect, so i'm going to take that as a sign that people have been forced to admit through their silence that i am correct:

    people have the right to be offended by anything they want, that's their business, but it's also their hang up.

    there's nothing wrong with using the rising sun flag that isn't also wrong with using the US or UK flag, so anyone on a crusade against one may as well join the crusades against the others.
    I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you know the rising sun is not the Japense flag, and that the actual Japense flag was the flag in use to represent Japan during the entire time period of the use of the rising sun symbol.

    The Nazi party had that symbol, but they ALSO had the german flag.

    In the case of the German the flag was around long before the nazi party went invading. In the case of the Union Flag, it actually came about AFTER they did their invading. Like as an Irish person, I'm at times a bit iffy on the flag, but the flag wasn't made until long after they colonised Ireland.

    In the case of the US flag, it was sort of a bit of both (Though, really the US flag shouldn't have anything to do with anything before c1776), but again, it was used to represent the country, and not the regime.

    The Imperial Japanese Army became the official army 1871. And they spent the time period between that and world war 2 invading people a lot and crushing rebellions. While the imperialism certainly got much much worse in WWII, it didn't just begin then. It began with Meiji restoration, and the adoption of a national army in 1871, followed relatively shortly by the invasion of Taiwan in 1874. Sure, it took the Japense longer, but they had less of the benefits of industrialisation when they started then the nazi party did in 1920.

    Again, the rising sun symbol is more like the swastika: it was used to represent violent oppressive invading tyranny. But it was also used both before and after by other people who had nothing to do with it, and for reasons completely unrelated reasons.

    Now, I think it's stupid to say that because GSP used the symbol, HE is an asshole. He's just ignorant of the associations and/or is of the belief that the symbol has moved past its associations with that time period.

    And I also know you've already mentioned that the swastika can be inoffensive, depending on the context, so I'm not looking to prove you wrong on that or anything. Just making the point that it's a more appropriate comparison than the US or UK flag.

    So while I agree this falls into the category of semiotics changing, and people being able to believe anything they want, I disagree that there is no difference between the rising sun flag, and the flags of the US and UK.
  2. Ming Loyalist is offline
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    solves problems with violence

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    Posted On:
    4/07/2013 8:56am

    supporting member
     Style: Judo, Hung Family Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by han090 View Post
    I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you know the rising sun is not the Japense flag, and that the actual Japense flag was the flag in use to represent Japan during the entire time period of the use of the rising sun symbol.
    both flags were in use, the armed forces flew the rising sun flag. the rising sun as a symbol has been around longer than since the meiji restoration by the way.

    The Nazi party had that symbol, but they ALSO had the german flag.
    what symbol, do you mean the swastika? you need to write more clearly if you want to make a point.

    In the case of the German the flag was around long before the nazi party went invading. In the case of the Union Flag, it actually came about AFTER they did their invading. Like as an Irish person, I'm at times a bit iffy on the flag, but the flag wasn't made until long after they colonised Ireland.
    the swastika was the symbol of the nazi party, not the army. the german flag *was* the flag of the army.

    yo do know that the irish aren't the only ones to take issue with the british empire and the union jack, right?

    US flag, it was sort of a bit of both (Though, really the US flag shouldn't have anything to do with anything before c1776), but again, it was used to represent the country, and not the regime.
    what are you talking about, you're not making a lot of sense here, is english your first language?

    atrocities were committed by the US army under the US flag. many people find the US flag offensive. my comparison makes perfect sense.

    The Imperial Japanese Army became the official army 1871. And they spent the time period between that and world war 2 invading people a lot and crushing rebellions. While the imperialism certainly got much much worse in WWII, it didn't just begin then. It began with Meiji restoration, and the adoption of a national army in 1871, followed relatively shortly by the invasion of Taiwan in 1874. Sure, it took the Japense longer, but they had less of the benefits of industrialisation when they started then the nazi party did in 1920.
    this has been discussed before. japan did terrible things (as did the UK and the US) so, what's your point?

    Again, the rising sun symbol is more like the swastika: it was used to represent violent oppressive invading tyranny. But it was also used both before and after by other people who had nothing to do with it, and for reasons completely unrelated reasons.
    huh? that makes no sense, but we have already discussed the fact that the rising sun is much more similar to the *iron cross* than the swastika.

    Now, I think it's stupid to say that because GSP used the symbol, HE is an asshole. He's just ignorant of the associations and/or is of the belief that the symbol has moved past its associations with that time period.
    AFAIK we have no idea what GSP feels about it, as only hayabusa has made a statement.

    And I also know you've already mentioned that the swastika can be inoffensive, depending on the context, so I'm not looking to prove you wrong on that or anything. Just making the point that it's a more appropriate comparison than the US or UK flag.
    you haven't proven a damn thing. i said that wearing the rising sun is exactly as questionable as wearing the US or UK flag, as all three flags offend people because and all three flags were flown by armies in times of war who did horrible things.

    So while I agree this falls into the category of semiotics changing, and people being able to believe anything they want, I disagree that there is no difference between the rising sun flag, and the flags of the US and UK.
    you need to work on how to build a proper argument, you haven't convinced me of anything.
    "Face punches are an essential character building part of a martial art. You don't truly love your children unless you allow them to get punched in the face." - chi-conspiricy
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  3. Southpaw86 is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/15/2013 7:57pm

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    -1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm sure the american flag is offensive to certain people who have had family members die as casualties of war by US forces. (what about the whole race of indians being decimated) I didn't even know about any Japanese flag being offensive myself till I read this thread... every civilization in history had committed atrocities against his fellow man..
  4. sy1980 is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/15/2013 8:28pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: judo bjj

    -1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    wonder how the vietmanese feel about the stars and stripes ? just wondering the past is the past
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